Article on Montauban publicity combat ............

[Russethouse]

But where to put new roads is not really PdFs argument as far as posting on forums is concerned - he is interested in stopping advertising by the side of the road (if I'm wrong, it says something about his posts).

He has a cause, but for what its worth IMHO it is sometimes better to give people a small taste of something, rather than trying to stuff their mouth full, and in addition mix up the message with other issues.

 

 

[TWINKLE]

Sorry Gay, only some of the posters were comparing him to Swampy the guy famous for protecting the countryside so I don't think I'm responsible for going off topic this time[:$]

[Bugsy]

It was said 'tongue in cheek' Twinks, no-one can predict the future planning and long my 'our little bit of nirvana' continue.

My original comment to PdeF was also said TIC. He/she just comes over as being totally serious and single-minded.

There really should be more to life than that.

I had my serious head on during my 45 years of working for a living and now I'm retired, well, life is just starting to look very short to be serious all the time.

Simple as that, really....................................no offence intended.

[Smiley]

[quote user="Paysages de France"] You are grossly mis - informed.
So, once again: from that other forum.........after I said I was leaving it due to the obscene and threatening language from other users.

  I also answered point by point the questions relating to the "décroissance" movement ...briefly:
 The French décroissance' movement advocates a scaling down for the rich countries not the poor ones.
 To reduce Co²: petrol price hike, introduce free local public transport, stop motorway building,  give out large grants for home insulation, encourage local consumption over costly and ecologically absurd food importation.
 My restaurant runs on town gas. Solar panels are not allowed in the historic centre of town.
 
[/quote]

 

PdF, I am not mis-informed a click on the link will show that the thread was deleted.

Whilst I agree that some of the tones of the forum are not always to my liking you are equally capable of insulting and seem totally unprepared to accept that others have views too. You treat those who may not agree with every element of your cause with utter distain.

With regards to your policies, they sound great on paper, but how do you plan to implement and pay for them? The hiking of petrol prices will create a massive public backlash as was shown in the UK. It would be seen as political suicide for any party implementing it.

Insulating of houses - great but it's not a new idea though is it?

How would you encourage people to use local produce? A lot of the problem is that people want more exotic foods these days and much of that cannot be produced locally.

Free local public transport, again great idea but there's no such thing as free. People will pay for it one way or another.

Why not try these for realistic ideas:

Lobby for the phasing out of incandescent lighting, reasonably priced low energy lamps are now affordable and have a long term benefit financially to the consumer and the environment. Or maybe encourage big companies to go for a carbon neutral scheme. Problem now is that you'll find it tough if you're alienating the big companies by covering up their billboards.  

Sometimes working with people rather than against them can be more effective

 

Twinkle please don't get me wrong, I think some of PdF's campaigns are worthy causes but his delivery does nothing to help gain friends.

Like I have said before sometimes a gentle approach is more effective.[:D]

 

[Clair]

[quote user="Smiley"]I think some of PdF's campaigns are worthy causes but his delivery does nothing to help gain friends. [/quote]

Hear hear!

[Paysages de France]

The fact that on all three english speaking forums I was met with abuse from certain of the users and  told to go back to England rather than try to change anything in  France (by people who are just here for the cheap wine, houses etc and who are not even bothered to take French politics  or  movements seriously) governed the tone of all my future postings.

  One thread was removed on another forum due to the rants and threats made by its users against me........

 I've lived in France with my French wife for 25 years and I'm  totally serious about the ecological issues I've been raising ........

In my view, people who are incapable of seeing that unchecked economic  growth is unsustainable are rather like the British communists in the 50's (and even much later in France) who swallowed soviet propaganda and were incapable of admitting  that Stalin was a bloody tyrant.

   All the politicians, all the economists, all the newspapers, and (of course) all the advertising executives assure us all the time that economic growth is necessary to promote employment and general wellbeing. So, of course,  it must be true........why?      because they say so all the time!!!!!!!!

           The fact that economic growth, in the west, means more roads, more traffic, more out of town shopping centres, more manufactured goods, more need for finite energy sorces........... also means more pollution.

         Our way of life is unsustainable and unexportable......... if everyone in the world lived like the average westerner the planet would expire very quickly.

  It's up to us to show the way forward and drastically reduce our excessive lifestyles - this is revolutionary talk (the only real revolutionary talk that could potentially harm the multinationales who effectively rule the world) and it's the real reason  why I am offending so many people.

 The décroissance movement in France has analysed the declarations of the politicians and economists and come to the conclusion that they are clinging to a sinking ship. (a fact that they admit in private).

      We've been brainwashed to accept that economic growth is the only way forward  .............     it's not.

[Russethouse]

 I think you assume an awful lot about members of French interest forums, however, given that France has an unemployment problem, in PdF world, how would you address this issue?

[Paysages de France]

There is no PdF world. Paysages de France is a national association dedicated to protecting landscapes. I'm a local correspondant for Pde France and a 'décroissance' activist. (antipublicity campaigns and protection of the countryside and urban landscapes in general).

  The future is in protecting the planet and fortunately this will involve job creation.

Unlike Germany, France has  missed the boat in creating jobs in  ecological development.

 Billions of euros are about to be invested in developing  the new EPR nuclear system which isn't necessary. The same amount of money could be used to employ up to 500,000 people in a ten year building insulation scheme. (the Green party in France has been campaigning for this for years)

 Supermarkets create unemployment, encourage car use and they propagate bad eating habits -  yet greedy maires (as in Montauban where there are 4 hypers for 55000 inhabitants) are welcoming further implantations (usually 'avec pots de vin') to recolt extra local taxes.

Boycotting supermarkets and  buying and consuming locally (farmers markets ans AMAP's) keeps local farmers alive and keeps money circulating in the community.

Instead of spending billions on more roads:

 The VNF (voies navigables de France) (the French canal body) is desperately underfunded and understaffed. It is unable to properly maintain the world heritage 'canal du midi' and the 'canal laterale de la Garonne'.

 The current system in the west encourages people to over consume. By consuming less peole won't have to work so many hours and job sharing could become more common.

 The 35 hr week in France has created over 300 000 jobs.

 

 

 

[Smiley]

[quote user="Paysages de France"]The fact that on all three english speaking forums I was met with abuse from certain of the users and  told to go back to England rather than try to change anything in  France (by people who are just here for the cheap wine, houses etc and who are not even bothered to take French politics  or  movements seriously) governed the tone of all my future postings.     

Our way of life is unsustainable and unexportable......... if everyone in the world lived like the average westerner the planet would expire very quickly. 
  [/quote]

PdF, I for one have never been abusive and I certainly wouldn't advocate you returning to England !!

Your comment about everyone in the world acting like the average westerner is utter rubbish. I have previously pointed out to you with facts that show the Co2 emmissions throughout Europe are falling while in India and China they are rising beyond control. When you are questioned about this you reply that it's not the poor countries that you are interested only the rich !!

Surely if you REALLY care about the world environment this is a far greater issue. These developing nations are the danger zones now. 

Your replies make me think that in fact your main agenda is against big corporations, wealthy states and indeed individuals who dare to fly to a holiday home that they have worked hard to enjoy.

You come accross as someone with a chip on their shoulder and an axe to grind.

 

[Smiley]

[quote user="Paysages de France"])
 Supermarkets create unemployment, encourage car use and they propagate bad eating habits 
  
[/quote]

PdF this is the sort of comment that I mean.  Supermarkets do not propogate bad eating habits, individuals do that all by themselves. Indeed they can actually encourage better eating as the choice is wider and more affordable. You seem to think that everyone else is not intelligent enough to choose for themselves.

 

[Bugsy]

[quote user="Paysages de France"]

.............by people who are just here for the cheap wine, houses etc and who are not even bothered to take French politics  or  movements seriously) governed the tone of all my future postings.
  .........................rather like the British communists in the 50's (and even much later in France) who swallowed soviet propaganda and were incapable of admitting  that Stalin was a bloody tyrant.
           Our way of life is unsustainable and unexportable......... if everyone in the world lived like the average westerner the planet would expire very quickly. 
  ......................................... and it's the real reason  why I am offending so many people.
 
      .............................We've been brainwashed to accept that economic growth is the only way forward  .............     it's not.

[/quote]

And you wonder why you get attacked on forums when you write in such a tone.

Arrogance, presumptious and sadly lacking in real understanding of others sets you aside as a bit of a fool.

Do you not realise that with a simple change in how you write you could bring people on board this noble (in part) cause of yours.

I would guess that the majority of contributors on here actually share a lot of your concerns, but you seem to want only to ailienate them with comments such as those above.

[Paysages de France]

Supermarket trolley pushers have contributed to the installation of a gigantic fraud - the 'cheap food' myth. France is the european country that has the largest number of super and hyper marchés per habitant. The immensely rich groups that control them have accumulated their wealth by forcing through legislation that is highly favourable towards them and has protected them from international concurrence. Their practises are often illegal (see current fine of 15 million euros against Carrefour for selling items at a loss to entice in clients). The food they sell, like the fruit and vegetables produced in almost slave labour conditions in S Spain, under plastic, is often practically unfit for human consumption due to high pesticide content. (a mass boycott is currently underway in N Europe concerning imported fresh foodstuffs from S Spain).

         Your local farmers market will provide you with a  vastly superior quality of locally produced food  at a similar price to the vastly overrated hypers.

[Iceni]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

He has a cause, but for what its worth IMHO it is sometimes better to give people a small taste of something, rather than trying to stuff their mouth full, and in addition mix up the message with other issues.

[/quote]

Well said Gay, I was a bit sympathetic at the beginning of this tedious thread but I find fanatics boring.

John

not

[Paysages de France]

Quote 'He has a cause' etc........Why do you always talk amongst yourselves  about me as if I don't exist?

  I have several causes, in fact, all inter related. But the one thing that links them all is the advertising industry - the  pivot on which revolves all the  worst excesses of our consumerist society.

Large  antipublicity action saturday  26 may in Montauban  - a town martyrised by the advertising industry.

[Russethouse]

Large  antipublicity action saturday  26 may in Montauban  - a town martyrised by the advertising industry.

According to a recent post you have been doing this for over a year - what has it achieved ? It may get you in the paper once a month and I strongly suspect that readers just look, think that again and turn the page. With all the good will in the world wouldn't it be better to try something different?

In the UK the movement of farmers markets has grown amazingly and many people try to buy what they can locally, however often demand outstrips supply - what is to happen then ? Should we all starve ?

Only recently I read about a well known local restauranteur, Anthony Worrall Thompson, a great supporter of Farmers markets, wanting to buy bacon from a local supplier, however the producer did not feel he had the capacity to supply him and I guess the supplier didn't want to alter his life style to alter that fact - and that is pretty much the rub isn't it? There are simply too many of us to be adequatley fed by small local producers who have often chosen a different way of life quite purposefully, so then what ?

If you could start explaining these smaller issues that we can all understand, perhaps we can gradually get to the 'bigger picture'

[chris pp]

Yes, well I'm broadly sympathetic which I guess most people regularly on this forum will already know, but I'm not getting deeply involved in this because frankly, PDF, I don't think that such an attacking stance is helpful, which I have already written in an other place in as friendly a manner as I could.

Smiley, sorry wrong, CO2 emissions in Europe are still increasing, check with the European Environment Agency latest reports.

Chris

[Iceni]

[quote user="Paysages de France"]Quote 'He has a cause' etc........Why do you always talk amongst yourselves  about me as if I don't exist? 
 
[/quote]

Wishful thinking ? [6]

John

not

[TreizeVents]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

According to a recent post you have been doing this for over a year - what has it achieved ?

In the UK the movement of farmers markets has grown amazingly and many people try to buy what they can locally, however often demand outstrips supply - what is to happen then ? Should we all starve ?

Only recently I read about a well known local restauranteur, Anthony Worrall Thompson, a great supporter of Farmers markets, wanting to buy bacon from a local supplier, however the producer did not feel he had the capacity to supply him and I guess the supplier didn't want to alter his life style to alter that fact - and that is pretty much the rub isn't it? There are simply too many of us to be adequatley fed by small local producers who have often chosen a different way of life quite purposefully, so then what ?

If you could start explaining these smaller issues that we can all understand, perhaps we can gradually get to the 'bigger picture'

[/quote]

One part of the bigger picture is that social change, deep social

change, does take a little bit of time.  I can imagine you saying to the

few bourgeois gentlemen, gathering in coffee houses in London, that their idea

of having a new system, which they will not have called "capitalism"

yet, a new system that will overthrow feudalism, was pie in the sky. 

Feudalism looked pretty good for a few centuries.  It took a bit of time

for the changes to take place, and it was not without serious struggles between

fanatic "capitalists" and committed aristocratic feudalists. 

And I can imagine you saying to the early "scientists" that they

really should give up, they were persecuted, mocked and told that really God

and the priests knew everything.  It takes time.  And it takes

thousands of activists like PdF to work for years to make changes.  Anyway,

if you think the French judicial system responds in one year to anything, then

I fear you are not living in the same country as me.  Perseverance

furthers.  And it is grossly naive to think that the world changes in one

year or even one decade.

As for farmers' markets in Britain, you should know very well that if it were

not for the years of groundwork on the part of committed shoppers actively

working on these issues, as well as the dedicated organic or local growers who

swam against the tide for years, nothing would have happened. 

Nothing.  Its these people you have to thank, including people like PdF,

even if you think he is an ill mannered and fanatic guy.  These people are

the ones who make social change, not people like you who sit on the sidelines,

censoring, threatening and asking for instant solutions to the world's

problems.  If you just want to shop locally, good for you, but don't

forget how long those changes take. 

Please cite the details for the Thompson story.  My guess is that there is

more to it than you say.  And I doubt the key to it all is the producer

"not wanting to change his lifestyle".  I saw that guy Thompson

on TV, and if he is the same guy he is pretty arrogant  himself, and maybe

not all that flexible.  However good his food.

And if you can explain how it is that you can be a "moderator",

neutrally helping us all get on well, impartially applying the rules, and then

contributing so much, and not that positively, then I would be very happy.

One last comment.  Maybe PdF is not a great communicator with English

immigrants, but he is actually working with FRENCH people. And has been for

years.  My own experience locally (Attac, CUAL, Social Forums) is that I

am the ONLY foreigner that turns up and is active.  I tell a few local

Brits about events, but they are not active, they don't care, and they pretty

much keep themselves to themselves in a political sense.  Usually their

French is not good enough to even understand the meetings, much less be

"active".  So rather than hassle PdF endlessly, I think we

should be glad that at least a few of us take an active political role in our

country, our new country.

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Paysages de France"]In the first part of the 19th century, the anti slave traders made ordinary people smile; in  the 20th century, the anti arpartheid campaigners and the opponents to white rule in S Rhodesia and the ones that advocated decolonisation and votes for women made people smile - as  did the vegetarians in Britain in the 1970's and 80's (when the meat eaters were being slowly poisoned).

     In Italy and Ireland, people smiled when a smoking ban was mooted (now in full force). In France, the first attempts to ban the guillotine, to  limit drink drivers and  speeding were met with smiles and any criticism of intensive farming techniques were greeted with laughter.

   So, the fact that I make you smile can only be a good sign for the "Décroissance" (anti economic growth) movement.

 

[/quote]

Now theres a real success story,  the new Utopia.

[Paysages de France]

A very good analysis  13 vents ......thankyou .

Southern Rhodesia:

  The very stupid white rulers  (all the books I've read on the subject confirm this) who denied basic civil rights and education  for the black majority for over fifty years and  then fought a war to maintain their privileges have everything to answer for.

  The situation of the black native population in S Rhodesia up till the 1960's has been described as worse than in S Africa under apartheid . The  situation in Zimbabwe today is tragic but there's no way that white minority rule can be justified. ........

[Paysages de France]

   Achievements?

 In Montauban (in reply to Russet House), with the help of Paysages de France, the disgracefgul, illegal giant totems for 'Mc Donald's' , 'Géant Casino', 'Campanile'  and 'Netto' plus a giganatic Leclerc sign that scarred the horizon have now been removed. A new series of 'démontages' are set to follow.

  The antipublicity actions continue in order to draw attention to the fact that with the aid of 400 giant publicity hoardings, the town's inhabitants are suffering a brain washing attempt on behalf of vested interests who are promoting a lifestyle that  threatens the very existence of the planet.

 Better to try something different?

  Many people have told us that we've made them think for the first time about the damage being perpetrated by our consumerist society. The antipublicity actions are here to stay as the all powerful advertising industry is at the very heart of the problems facing the planet.

    

   

[Smiley]

[quote user="chris pp"]

Smiley, sorry wrong, CO2 emissions in Europe are still increasing, check with the European Environment Agency latest reports.

Chris

[/quote]

Hi Chris

I did indeed check (I assumed that by Greenhouse gases they included Co2 as well). I couldn't find the figures for post 2005 only a projection:

http://www.eea.europa.eu/highlights/eu-greenhouse-gas-emissions-drop-in-2005

The latest projections from pre-2004 EU Member States (EU-15) show that greenhouse gas emissions could be brought down to 8.0 % below 1990 levels by 2010. If all existing and planned domestic policy measures are implemented and Kyoto mechanisms as well as carbon sinks are used, the EU-15 will reach its Kyoto Protocol target. This projection relies on figures from several Member States which suggest that they will cut emissions by more than is required to meet their national targets. Existing domestic policies and measures will reduce total EU-15 greenhouse gas emissions by a net effect of 0.6 % from 1990 levels. When additional domestic policies and measures (planned but not yet implemented) are taken into account, the EU-15 could reduce emissions by 4.6 %. The projected use of Kyoto mechanisms by ten of the EU-15 will reduce emissions by a further 2.6 % at a cost of EUR 2 830 million. The use of carbon sinks, such as planting of forests to remove CO2, would contribute an additional 0.8 %. All ten new EU Member States are on track to achieve their individual Kyoto targets, despite rising emissions. This is largely due to economic restructuring in the 1990s.

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Paysages de France"]A very good analysis  13 vents ......thankyou .

Southern Rhodesia:

 

  The situation of the black native population in S Rhodesia up till the 1960's has been described as worse than in S Africa under apartheid . The  situation in Zimbabwe today is tragic but there's no way that white minority rule can be justified. ........

[/quote]

How true, much better that the population starve under a black dictator.

When I was in Rhodesia in 1970 and suggested to a "black native" that he would be better off under his "own" Govt rather than the whites I was almost laughed out of sight. The comment was " I have a job, I have good pay, I have a house, my children go to school and have shoes on their feet, what am I going to get from a Black Govt that I dont already have from a white Rhodesian Govt?"

I couldn't answer him.

The "white minority" were as much Rhodesians as the blacks, more so in some cases. Generations of whites versus immigrant blacks, but of course only whites can be called racialists.

It used to be a beautiful, thriving country with a stable economy. It was a joy to live there. Now its totally screwed up. The "black-Africans" in Rhodesia were the envy of "black-Africans" throughout central and southern Africa. As were the "white-Africans", until those people who cant see past the colour of someones skin got involved.

[Paysages de France]

"It was a joy to live there" - but only a small minority were allowed to vote or govern!!!!!

Doris Lessing, Britain's best woman writer, was born and raised in S Rhodesia. Her many books on the country paint a telling picture of the arrogant, cruel and superior ways of the minority white rulers.

 She was a card carrying communist briefly (as were many others at the time), and she's spent the last fifty years denouncing the communist party and the USSR. (up to the demise of communism in that country)

.  Never, has she gone back on her appraisal of the white minority rulers in S Rhodesia, however.

[Russethouse]

TV -

And if you can explain how it is that you can be a "moderator", neutrally helping us all get on well, impartially applying the rules, and then contributing so much, and not that positively, then I would be very happy.

I have answered this by PM earlier, the rules of this forum state : Comments or questions regarding the general administration of the forum should be made by "private message" or using the "Report" link to the moderators or direct to Forum Admin. Such comments or questions should not be posted in the open forum.

Whether it is about me or anyother moderator or the forum in general, further coments regarding the running of the forum will be deleted because they are against the rules.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I would suggest to you that neither you or PdF came to your conclusions overnight, you took time. I don't think its unreasonable of me personally, or as a moderator to ask for some answers to some basic questions, most people respect a different view if it is well thought out and explained, I'm trying to encourage PdF to go back to basics a little and explain his ideas, not bombard us with his dislike of the advertising industry and the ills of the present system only. So far PdFhas met what I would term a mixed response to his ideas on three seperate forums, whatever he is doing isn't gaining him any/many supporters..........just perhaps, if he took a deep breath and broke his argument down in to baby steps to begin with maybe he would find that he did have some support after all, at least for parts of his idea.

As for AWT, I'll see if I can find the magazine I read the article in. ( It is either Berkshire Life or the Waitrose in store magazine )Whether or not he is arrogant is hardly relevant, as it happens I have eaten at one of his pubs 4 times now and am not that keen on the presentation and menu, however I recognise that the vegetables (often grown by him) are very tasty and the food is of very good quality. Locally he has been a great supporter of the Farmers Market helping to get at least two established and was also a prime mover in starting a local Food Fair. He publicises local food and the ethos of buying from small producers when he can. Fair play to him.

That aside, it doesn't answer the question I posed. How do we feed the current population with locally produced, better quailty food when many of the producers have made a lifestyle choice to limit their output ? Are you hoping that more people would become interested in agriculture ? What happens in cities? Have we actually gone past a point where this was viable - and if not how could it be achieved. Is it being achieved anywhere within the wealthier nations?