My new baby!

[Dick Smith]

I have heard of people slaughtering deer in this way, shooting them whilst they were grazing so that they experienced no stress being taken for slaughter. But those people were trained and licensed and supervised.

A thought - better now than when it is too late - rams headbut each other don't they? Goats which do similar have reinforced skulls to cope with the stress. Do sheep? Do you know or care? A .22 bullet is a bit lightweight I would have thought, and then all you have is a scared, injured animal on your hands. Not a good outcome. That's why slaughtermen are trained, I imagine?

[Meg]

Ignoring anything about what is legal and what bullet would do the job best and what suffering or not is caused (I know nothing about these things), but my personal opinion is that if you eat meat you should be prepared to kill an animal. I don't think i could do it myself and that makes me a hypocrite.

I'm not that upset the gruesome side of this thread as OH's brother is a farmer and have heard plenty of details.  I love all animals, and i feel somewhat dishonest eating something that i have no idea how it lived or died and what stress it suffered.

I've been in a chicken factory where they are killed going along on a conveyor belt. That was horrible. Someone killing a chicken by hand....not as pretty but it's honest.

There is a very different attitude to animals here in our bit of France. Nothing is thought of drowning cats in a bucket when they become a nuisance. It is sad, but it is how life is over here.

[Dick Smith]

But surely the point here is the slaughter by strange means by someone who sees it as a 'learning experience'?

[Bugsy]

Extract from BASC

Removed by me after a bit of thought and the conclusion that I should stop banging my head against a brick wall now.

I'm done and gone..............................[:(] 

[cooperlola]

Meg, I will happily wring a chicken's neck because I know how to do it quickly and properly.  Not a problem.  I watched the process over and over again and even practiced on dead chickens, before I attempted to do it alone, however.  And the first few times I had to do this myself, I had an expert standing by to take over in case I bungled it.

Now, I'm going to do my best to make like Buggs and get out of here, before I burst a blood vessel.[:-))]

[Unknown]

I agree that Chris would have probably been wise to keep this to himself, if he didn't want the barage (sp Dick?) from some of the folk on here.  But he did want to share his little bit of French life with us all. 

I don't really know how affective each gun with which bullet is, and one of two things is going to happen.

Firstly, Chris is a crack shot, uses the correct gun and bullet, kills the ram humanely and gets to eat some tasty mutton.

Secondly, Chris is a c r a p shot, hits the animal but the ram suffers as a consequence of Chris not knowing which gun and bullet to use, has to shoot the ram several more times to put it out of its misery, ram is killed but its all a bit traumatic.  Chris and his family then get to eat some stressed mutton.

Either way, the ram is dead.

I really don't think its about saving euros, from what I've learnt about reading Chris's posts is that he likes to do things for himself.  Why can't we take our hats off to him for attempting this, rather than give him a hard time.

Just my opinion.

[Tresco]

I've got no problem with anyone rearing animals and then eating them.

I do have a problem when someone says they have no experience (apart from seeing some very inhumane ways of slaughtering) and says they will 'learn' by doing it themselves.

As I've said, we are surrounded by people who are skilled at slaughtering/butchering. We would only need to ask.

Several people here do have experience, yet they've been ignored at each turn. Chris, you also talk about a 'rule book' and that you would be derided if you asked people in the locality. Would those be the same people who used the "mallet method' for the pig you mentioned?.

Why not ask other people to help you with this, or to find someone who will help you and do it humanely?

You'll still 'learn'.

PS Barrage, Dotty.

 

[Unknown]

Thankyou Tresco.

[JayJay]

[quote user="Tresco"]

I've got no problem with anyone rearing animals and then eating them.

I do have a problem when someone says they have no experience (apart from seeing some very inhumane ways of slaughtering) and says they will 'learn' by doing it themselves.

As I've said, we are surrounded by people who are skilled at slaughtering/butchering. We would only need to ask.

Several people here do have experience, yet they've been ignored at each turn. Chris, you also talk about a 'rule book' and that you would be derided if you asked people in the locality. Would those be the same people who used the "mallet method' for the pig you mentioned?.

Why not ask other people to help you with this, or to find someone who will help you and do it humanely?

You'll still 'learn'.

[/quote]

Exactly Tresco, well put!

[Dick Smith]

You think we should 'take our hats off' to someone who manages to achieve your second scenario?

Have you read Christine's posts?

[Tresco]

No probs Dotty. [:D]

I just think Dick shouldn't have to bear the brunt all the time. He has enough to contend with with my very own spelling mistakes - let alone everyone elses.[:D]

Now, where were we...?

[WJT]

Meg and Mog, just because there is barbaric behaviour that is being practised by ignorant people does not make it right. Because people in your area don't think twice about drowning kittens do not make it right. I really get upset when people say when you move here you must accept barbarity and cruelty and not make a stand. I don't believe for a minute that all that were born and raised in rural France are that cruel and backwards, in fact I know that not to be the case.

There is nothing wrong no matter where you live in the world for standing up for what is right and perhaps having enough bravery to point out the fact that you find a certain action unacceptable and cruel. Thank goodness not everyone is like this. I guess you may call it evolution. Bring it on!

Dick, I agree with you, very odd comments indeed! To say the animal will die whether it is in a cruel manner or humanely and you should take your hat off to the guy for trying is just plain weird [:(].

[Hoddy]

Meg and Mog makes some very interesting points about our relationship with animals and the very valid point that most of us are hypocrites unless we’re vegetarians.

Although I agree with that, I do so only up to point. I do eat meat but I want to be sure that the animals I eat have been treated well. In a lifetime in the English countryside I have only ever known one farmer who killed his own animals. The animal concerned was a billy goat kid, shot at close range with a double barrelled shotgun (in case a second barrel was needed) because he thought that was a little kinder than it being slaughtered in a halal manner which he disapproved of and which would have been its fate if it had gone to market..

Tresco has pointed out that there are professionals who will do this for you on your own premises which seems to me a good solution.

Meg and Mog says “It’s sad, but it is how life is over here.” Loving the French as I do, I don’t think I have to do everything as they do. I make my own choices even if I don’t try to convert them to my point of view.

As for taking my hat off to Chris, no I don't He already has two cade lambs and he is complaining about the cost of feeding them. When the time comes for them to be weaned, probably around February, there will be precious little grass for them. That’s why people who know what they’re doing don’t normally have lambs born in November. The mother had three lambs, again, something which should not happen with good management. The presence of the ram when the lambs were being born may well have something to do with the lambs being rejected by their mother. Chris is willing to have a go and is learning, but he is creating problems as he goes. If he were suffering I wouldn’t be worried about it, but the animals seem to be the ones who are going to pay the price.

The last point I’d make is a wider one. Many of us on here are doing amateur jobs on house conversions and so on. We know that we don’t do it as well as the professionals and in most cases it doesn’t matter because a life is not involved. In this case it is.

I urge you to reconsider Chris.

Hoddy

[Meg]

[quote user="WJT"]

Meg and Mog, just because there is barbaric behaviour that is being practised by ignorant people does not make it right. Because people in your area don't think twice about drowning kittens do not make it right. I really get upset when people say when you move here you must accept barbarity and cruelty and not make a stand. I don't believe for a minute that all that were born and raised in rural France are that cruel and backwards, in fact I know that not to be the case.

[/quote]

Who is right and who is wrong though. We all have our own opinions. You think it barbaric others see it as normal. The same as my neighbours think we are odd allowing animals in the house (let alone in our bed!!) It's just a different viewpoint, and i have no right to go and tell them they are wrong /cruel and backwards and ignorant.

[Dick Smith]

Ah! Moral Relativism.

I thought that died out years ago.

It doesn't wash. We have to have some sort of standards, and if we believe in them we must stand by them. To simply say that other people are equally right is just abdicating our moral responsibility.

[WJT]

Well said Hoddy. I for one hope Chris listens to you.

Meg and Mog, I think you have every right if they are inflicting pain on an animal and particularly if they are doing it illegally.[:(]

[Unknown]

Hoddy I think you have some very valid points.  I'm not for the ram geting the chop either by the way, but I will say hats off to Chris as he is trying to rear his own food, whether he is doing it successfully or not.

I think originally he was unsure of how to cut up the meat, rather than kill the animal.  If he is uncertain of how to kill the sheep humanely, then I agree he should get help.  But if he is sure he knows what he is doing, then I admire him for doing so.  Its not something I would want to do, though I grew up on a small holding and we used to grow our own chickens, pigs and sheep.

WJT, if you have something to say to me then please do it directly, I don't bite, honest.

[Chris Head]

The reasons I'm taking this all on are entirely honourable, and based on real experiences and dislikes of the processes involved here. I detest the pig being killed by the mallet, it appalled me (I hope that doesn't deflate your argument Tresc), but I did stand there and watch it scream as it died, it's stuff like that, and the way the lambs and geese and rabbits (I won't even go there with that one) are killed that has caused me to come to the conclusion I have.

Dick, a .22 rimfire round is more than ample for the job, I understand you're just guessing but you're guessing wrongly, by all means come along and prove me wrong. BB, paper targets and theory are very different to putting a round into flesh and bone, again, come on over and prove me wrong, you'd be welcome.

The hysteria and guesswork here is what I expected, the personal stuff, animal rights folk, naysayers, theorists and guessers were all bound to go with the thread. I've got the balls to live it and post it, I'm not hiding from processes that I disagree with, I'm facing them and doing something about it, perhaps you all might think about that the next time you're looking at a joint of meat in Leclerc? You're all trusting that all the rules have been followed and the animal has been reared and treated in a lovely fashion....mine have.

The flak means very little to me, my shoulders are broad folks. The subject is a real and valid one, my conscience has caused me to do something about it, I'll sleep well tonight whilst most of you will be still theorising about the rights and wrongs.

[Meg]

I agree with Dotty. I admire Chris for trying to raise and eat his own meat.

And yes Dick i have standards for myself, i just don't choose to force them down other peoples throats. I respect other peoples opinions and beliefs, even if i don't agree with them.

[Chris Head]

Ah! Moral Relativism.

I thought that died out years ago.

Dick, as beautiful as your words might seem, I don't understand your meaning or inference, yes, I'm a thicko in the literary and philosophical world.

Again I hear you Hoddy, my responsibilties are are obviously coming home big time and I'm trying to face up to them. The killing of the animal is the easy part, I am comfortable and adept at it. Would the Halal method be more acceptable if I said my religion would only accept that method?

[Just Katie]

Chris, If I were you, I would get advice from someone with more experience on how to kill the sheep humanely (but I expect you have already done that).  I would certainly have a go of cutting the animal because it would be a good learining process - so what if a few joints are uneven.  Then, I would sit back and enjoy the meat as your own produce.  Something to be proud of.

[Chris Head]

The killing is the easy part JK.

I sense heads are ducking below the parapet now. It's most unlike Dick not to respond, that fateful evening you did the same my friend.

[Tresco]

Chris, you already said your ribs or shins or whatever it was haven't recovered from the last time you tried to approach the ram.

How are you going to get up to it.

And when you say 'adept', how many Rams have you shot before? Seriously.

[Dick Smith]

Sorry, Chris, I don't actually wait by the computer to see if there's something you don't understand and need explained to you.

However, to save you the trouble of looking it up, look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-relativism/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4460673.stm

I'm with the Pope on this one.

[Chris Head]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]Sorry, Chris, I don't actually wait by the computer to see if there's something you don't understand and need explained to you.

However, to save you the trouble of looking it up, look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-relativism/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4460673.stm

I'm with the Pope on this one.
[/quote]

Thanks for the links Dick, but no thanks, why can't you answer a simple question with a simple answer? Do you give the same answer to the kids you teach? I asked you a simple question. If you were in my world and face to face I would never dream of patronising you in the same way.

Do you concede that there are people who are less clever than you with the written word?