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Irresponsible parenting


Deby

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I am amazed by the mother of 15 year old Scarlett Keeling who decided to leave her in the 'care' of a 25 year old local person whom she'd only recently met, whilst she took her other kids travelling around India.  This mother believes she was not irresponsible but just 'niave'  - amounts to the same thing to me.  Her 15 year old was raped and then murdered which is a terrible thing. The fact that it was in India doesnt really make any difference as to where she was, even if she was wandering around England, France or Thailand, this mother should not have left her daughter to someone she barely knew.  She should be held to account.  Her daughter is still a minor and this mother had a duty to care for her welfare.  I hope Social Services will question this woman and consider the welfare of her other children and bring this selfish lady to account.

Deby

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[quote user="Deby"]

I am amazed by the mother of 15 year old Scarlett Keeling who decided to leave her in the 'care' of a 25 year old local person whom she'd only recently met, whilst she took her other kids travelling around India.  This mother believes she was not irresponsible but just 'niave'  - amounts to the same thing to me.  Her 15 year old was raped and then murdered which is a terrible thing. The fact that it was in India doesnt really make any difference as to where she was, even if she was wandering around England, France or Thailand, this mother should not have left her daughter to someone she barely knew.  She should be held to account.  Her daughter is still a minor and this mother had a duty to care for her welfare.  I hope Social Services will question this woman and consider the welfare of her other children and bring this selfish lady to account.

Deby

[/quote]

You're right Deby, her daughter's murder is not enough and she deserves to be punished [6]

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Although a tragic case, it has also been alleged that

earlier on the fateful evening she staggered out of a bar very “out-of-control”

telling a passer by the cocktail of drugs she had consumed (which I cannot

remember but there was LSD “on the list”). 

Thus seems she was not an “walking home unwisely” (or similar) but just

out of control on “substance abuse” and completely unsupervised.

However, the report of the above was from a British person

also in the area who has now disappeared saying he was scared and the British

Embassy were failing to help him.  Also,

given what he says he saw there are questions as to why he did not intervene

later to assist the poor girl.  Thus one

might not want to treat his comments as completely reliable.

Ian

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In many circumstances if you have been suspected of being irresponsible with regard to one child, authorities act to safeguard other children in the same family. Frankly I think this is probably correct, however where there have been such dreadful repercussions 'society' often takes the view that self blame is sufficient punishment.

The wider question is that should this always be the case ?

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Several thoughts came to mind.

Are the family resident in India (Goa) or on a long break from the UK : 

What about Schooling  the mum has 7 children.

Naive does not hold any water. She was 15 having sex with a local 25 year old and the mum knew about

it but only in the last month.  Then she goes walk about with her clan but allows the 15yr old to her own devices.

How are the family dealing with money matters or are they still under the UK system and receiving monies that way.

Social Services will have a field day if they decide to come back.

The above does not take away my thoughts for the poor unfortunate girl and her immediate family.

 

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They were on a '6 month holiday'.

The children are 'home schooled' and live an 'alternative' liftestyle.

What struck me on seeing footage of the mother and some of the girl's sisters was how 'normal' they seemed emotionally.  They didn't seem to be too upset considering what happened.  Almost as though "oh well, I've got 6 spare ones"

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[quote user="Russethouse"]

In many circumstances if you have been suspected of being irresponsible with regard to one child, authorities act to safeguard other children in the same family. Frankly I think this is probably correct, however where there have been such dreadful repercussions 'society' often takes the view that self blame is sufficient punishment.

The wider question is that should this always be the case ?

[/quote]

I don’t have children and am not an expert but I thought

leaving several kinds under 4 in a hotel room whilst you go out for an evening

meal with friends was considered by many to be irresponsible and in Portugal

actually against the law.  However,

seems if you are well qualified UK authorities and Portuguese authorities will

completely overlook it.

Maybe such messages (i.e. behaving like this is not “irresponsible”)

just make it easier for parents to fail in their duty – after all, the McCanns “did

nothing wrong” (a strong and often repeated message).  Maybe if the authorities were a bit stricter about enforcing such

regulations other parents would start to think twice.

Ian

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You're right Deby, her daughter's murder is not enough and she deserves to be punished Devil [6]

Lets all do what we please! The victim is Scarlett and not the mother. yes she will be grieving as she has lost a child, but she should have been acting in her best interest and she did not.  This girl was left in a vulnerable situation and she unfortunately paid the price with her life. Her mother should not have left her so vulnerable. As said in another post, parameters need to be set.  You should not just leave your kids to their own devices, if this girl had problems with drugs and alcohol - more reason to not leave her. Out of sight out of mind. This girl needed guidance and certainly not to be left alone.  The mother did not look after her daughter.

Deby

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It's true that not all women are naturally good mothers, but I do think the penny might have dropped before one got as far as nine of them

As for punishment, it does at least demonstrate society's disapproval of her actions.

Hoddy
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you here storys in the newspapers of the kids being home alone because there mum and her new boyfriend have gone on a holiday somewhere nice and leave the kids  at home with £50 to buy the pizzas and then the kids have a party and then someone  puts it on myspace and 50 kids turn up then the house is trashed, then the police find out the mum is on holiday living it up somewhere like the maldives or on safari with the new flavour, and then the storys of the modern family travelling round the world on an adventure and some of the family staying on at some destinations for the culture and maybe the others are on the otherside of the world keeping in touch with email and phone but goa has a reputation as being a party place for western kids so obviously theres going to be thieves, druggies, and crazys waiting for the naive westerners with champane in 1 hand and a smoking thing in the other, and a wallet/purse filled with treasures and cards and gold and silver, how many hours or days does it take to work out if a person is safe to leave your children with or maybe there just isnt  enough time to think about it when your on a 6 month adventure
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Surely, the key facet here is the singular fact that increasing numbers of parents, today, are only to ready to abrogate their obligations, as mothers and fathers?

Time after time, society finishes up picking up the collective tab (i.e. socially and fiscally) for large rafts of irresponsible people, who are quick to conceive, but slow to continue the continuous process of parenting?

The ever-larger number of "One Parent Families" is a symptom of this malaise.

Personally, I believe firmly, that in a balanced and well ordered society, we ought all to accept full responsibility for our independent actions: and the results thereof; rather than simply allow the Social State to try, badly, to pick up the pieces!

Each and every time the media screens items on problem estates, anti-social behaviour, gang vandalism and etc, young kids are involved as well as teenagers.

No doubt whilst these kids are wreaking havoc on the law abiding, taxpaying majority, their parents are busy watching TV, playing bingo, boozing, or procreating with yet another partner.

Perhaps sex-segregated workhouses might be in order, once socially unstable men and women reach child number three, rather than ever-increasing Social Benefit payments!

Or forcible sterilisation......................

Humph, humph................!

 

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[quote user="Gluestick"]

Each and every time the media screens items on problem estates, anti-social behaviour, gang vandalism and etc, young kids are involved as well as teenagers.

No doubt whilst these kids are wreaking havoc on the law abiding, taxpaying majority, their parents are busy watching TV, playing bingo, boozing, or procreating with yet another partner.

[/quote]

It’s OK.  The

government have that problem sorted now. 

School kids are going to have to swear allegiance to the Queen (or the

flag) – so problem sorted.  Smart these politicians.

Ian

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according to the daily mail on monday, the mother has 9 kids and lives in a caravan in devon, but she could only take 6 or 7 on holiday, thats alot of money on flights and things, and according to the indian times newspaper about 160 tourist have been killed or mudered in goa in the last 2 years, i dont think that is true, its not like theres a war going on there, also the one that killed the girl was a local drug dealer that may have the local police in his pocket, i expect if someone gets killed in these sort of places you can pay the police a  "make it look like an accident fee"  
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A reader's comment in that Thunderer article, rather sums up the strange, "Divorced from reality" perspective of far too many "Adults" today.

[quote]There is a dangerous undercurrent in some of the comments listed here that in temporarily entrusting the care of her daughter to someone she knew, Mrs MacKeown somehow then deserved what followed. This attitude is of the same rapists' apologist argument that seeks to excuse rape on the basis of the woman wearing a short skirt. That her daughter was raped and murdered is not the fault of this woman, it is the fault of the MAN who did it. It is unconscionable that anyone can think to have a go at this poor woman who has lost her child in the most horrendous circumstances, rather than railing instead at the man who did it and the inept authorities that initially were happy for him to get away with it. [/quote]

Using the correspondent's illogic, I suppose that if your child in her or his GAP year decides to visit Beirut and is subsequently kidnapped and held hostage in the Be'Qa Valley, then it's the fault of:

The Foreign Office for not acting more quickly:

The kidnappers:

The government for not ensuring UN sorted out the problems before:

The airline for not refusing to take the kid into that place:

The Home Office for allowing them to have a passport:

And so on ad finitum.

There exists an old and most valuable tenet of law: volenti non fit injuria.

Which means, simply, that one cannot take action against third parties for self-induced injury and loss.

This rather strange woman seems to want to live in society: yet be outside it: a case of sort of having one's cake and eating it too?

Yet her time warp conscious sense of personal and vicarious responsibility seems to have been placed in a neat compartment marked " Do not open on voyage!"

 

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I think there are two issues here.  Of course the person who committed the murder is the one who

committed the crime.  However, in

addition to that I think people have a certain degree of choice in what level

of risk they expose themselves to.

Many years ago I was walking through a city in Central

America when a Police car pulled up and the officer asked if I had been mugged

yet.  When I said no his response was

that I probably only had to wait a few more minutes then.  I was being daft walking where I was and had

I been mugged I would have received little sympathy as in some respects I

brought the crime on myself.  True the

mugger would have been the person who committed the crime but that it happened

to me would have been my fault in so far as I put myself in a very high risk

position (through my own choice – all be that because I did not know the area

well).

It is unfortunate that crime is part of society these days –

but it is so people need to live with a degree of common sense and make some

judgements about risk and consequences. 

In the case of minors I always thought this would be the responsibility

of the parents.

Ian

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I agree, Ian: and that's the point I was making. Same happened to myself and a companion in Mexico City some years ago.

A tourist policeman (who spoke perfect English) insisted on putting us in a cab and sending us back to the hotel.

In 1980, I was still meeting consulting tasks for my previous company: they wanted to send me to part of the Middle East, to sort out a very big and important Letter of Credit. It would have involved mainly waiting around for two weeks until the local banks could be galvanised into action.

I wanted a Kidnap and Ransom policy issued by Lloyds, as well as expensive healthcover.

We couldn't reach terms.

Despite the very tempting thousands of $ fee, I stayed at home!

I agree with your comment, JE: that said, I would personally handcuff a 15 year old daughter of mine to the wall, rather than allow her to travel to such a place, under similar circumstances.

If a woman voluntarily goes to a city and the area of that city where rape is an everyday occurence and women tourists are seen as fair game, then surely it comes as no surprise when they are raped, does it?

Anymore than a British  person going to say Baghdad by themselves getting shot is amazing: amazing would be if they didn't get shot!

I fear far too many Brits seem to imagine that British socialtal and law and order values will apply in that wonderful place, "Abroad", just because they are British!

 

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Of course, one as a personal responsibility - to oneself and to one's children (I've avoided having these as I'm sure I would have been a very bad parent - far too selfish!)  And in one respect at least I do agree - how bloomin' naive people are when they go abroad.  We've seen it on here in a minor way when people come to live here and don't bother to check the law and their rights before coming, then are amazed when they fall foul of the rules because they're not the same as the UK's. In what one might broadly term "less civilized" parts of the globe, it never fails to amaze me how daft people are and how little they do their homework before travelling.

Nevertheless, from a moral point of view I continue to hold the view that the true criminal remains the one who commits the crime and that they should be held to account - not the victim.

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(In a general sense and not with regard to the specific

tragedy this thread is about …)

That said, and whilst this is tragic I do think that society

must guard about becoming over protective. 

I do not know the details of the mothers situation and exactly what was

going on but I do think that travel to different countries, experiencing

different cultures, etc. is very good for a child’s upbringing.

Children do need to be allowed a degree of freedom and

allowed to make mistakes.  They cannot

appreciate everything from “being told”. 

The difficulty comes in establishing a sensible balance.  In the UK at the moment there seems a

culture of excessive protection with the result that young people have the need

for a constant safety net – in effect not only wanting but needing the “nanny

state”.

These days seems that a child falls of a swing and grazes

his/her knee and there are calls to have the playground shut down, calls for

the person in charge of whoever owns the playground (e.g. the local mayor) to

resign.  And after the government

enquiry has reported and every playground in the country now has to conform to

regulations requiring to child be able to reach a anywhere more than 6 inches

above ground level … .  Thing is that it

is actually important that the child falls of a swing occasionally – as they

learn that it hurts and what they do wrong, etc.  Unfortunate but important. 

What is even worse is that very very occasionally the accident will be

more serious (e.g. broken leg), and exceptionally rarely somebody might die.

Life is about risk. 

For each child seriously injured in a playground there will be many more

killed on the roads, or through many other stupid needless activities.  I think that society needs to accept that unfortunate

as it is, accidents will happen and doing everything possible to prevent those

accidents can sometimes be counter productive.

I’m not trying to say that we accept the Goa murder as “part

of learning” but in life there will be occasional tragedies.  But you cannot wrap a 15 year old in cotton

wool and protect them from everything only to give them complete freedom on

their 16th birthday – which would often have predictable consequences.

I have a suspicion (without any evidence) that these sorts

of tragedies have been happening for years. 

What has changed is that they are now major news items with the

associated outcry.  When I was a child I

had great fun doing loads of things that many “well cared for” children would definitely

not be allowed to do these days.  I

regularly had accidents and a few were serious.  My friends were the same. 

Thinking back, were I doing the same today I doubt there would be time

for all the enquiries and “reviews” that my activities would cause.

(Here I am talking about society in general and not the

specific circumstances of the 15 year old in Goa)

But then never having kids probably makes me totally

unqualified to even comment on how they should be brought up.

Ian

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The victim is sadly dead.

She was, in the opinion of a lot of people, badly let down by her mother who is an adult and who should have known better than to leave her daughter in a vulnerable situation.

Now the mother says that blaming herself isn't part of her lifestyle - she must be made of emotional Teflon.

 

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We've been discussing elsewhere, Ian, the problems one parent is having in even finding a carrier who will let a 15 year old cross the channel alone.  In that thread, I pointed out that I did this on a regular basis from the age of 10 and my mother did too.  Both of us stayed with French families for long periods and we had to get ourselves across the water or just not go.  I don't think either of us would have wanted our childhoods without this experience.

But sure, there's a huge gap between France and Goa, and I too can't really comment on a parent's responsibilities, having eschewed them myself.  But were my parents wrong to pop me on a ship to France and wave goodbye for a month when I was 10?  I certainly don't think so in hindsight.

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