Scottish Independance

[Pommier]

So if Scotland votes for independance, will the Union flag be re-drawn excluding the Scottish flag?

[woolybanana]

Seems logical in the long run.

[AnOther]

I agree but also suggest they redesign the Saltaire with the word HELP writ large across it, they will need it !

[Rabbie]

The Union Flag still has the the red cross of St Patrick in it despite most of Ireland leaving the Union.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="AnOther"]I agree but also suggest they redesign the Saltaire with the word HELP writ large across it, they will need it !

[/quote]Although I as a born and bred Scot am opposed to splitting the union my more cynical half wonders why if Scotland becoming independant is so bad for Scotland and by implication good for England  the English are so opposed to it.

[AnOther]

Sorry but I fail to see the 'bad for Scotland' = 'good for England' implication you speak of ?

I haven't said that I'm opposed to it and frankly I couldn't give a monkeys U-No-Wot whether they gain full independence or not but I am aware that they are being serially conned and that it would be a catastrophe for them.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="AnOther"]Sorry but I fail to see the 'bad for Scotland' = 'good for England' implication you speak of ?

I haven't said that I'm opposed to it and frankly I couldn't give a monkeys U-No-Wot whether they gain full independence or not but I am aware that they are being serially conned and that it would be a catastrophe for them.

[/quote]Perhaps because you are fortunate enough to live in France you have missed some of the comments around here where ordinary english people regard Scotland (and Wales) as a drain on their resources and that they would be better off without them. So following this logic I am a little surprised that the conservatives who would find it easier to get a majority without scottish opposition MPs are so keen to keep the union intact.

[Hoddy]

As an Englishwoman I would be very sad if Scotland leaves the union even though I accept their right to choose.

I they do leave I think I might devote my declining years to reinstating the Danelaw because I think our complaints are similar to those of the Scottish. Far too many national decisions are made at Westminster and consideration of the real countryside, not just those parts in nature reserves and country parks, seems too little considered.

Hoddy

[Rabbie]

Perhaps a federal Britain  and reinstating the ancient kingdoms of  Wessex, Mercia etc would provide a better solution. The present constitutional situation is a mess with Scots and Welsh MPs able to vote on English issues that are handled by the Scots and Welsh parliaments,

[AnOther]

[quote user="Rabbie"]you have missed some of the comments around here where ordinary english people regard Scotland (and Wales) as a drain on their resources and that they would be better off without them.[/quote]

TBH I find that many people who have firm opinions on such matters have formed them on an empirical or emotional basis without really understanding the issues at all, just as many who advocate Scottish independence believe that all the revenue from the North Sea would suddenly be diverted to Holyrood !

Even there though there are fatal flaws and those who support independence would be well advised to read the attached document and then square that with Salmond's self serving rhetoric

http://www.scotlandoffice.gov.uk/scotlandoffice/files/Scotland%20and%20Oil%20-%20Background%20paper.pdf

[idun]

If Scotland leaves well, yes, the flag'll change. It has not 'always' been as it is anyway and in fact when James V1  became King in England, wasn't the scottish flag at the front of the union flag, poor description, but it was  clearer than it is now......... or is the old memory failing........ again.

As there is a parliament in Wales and Scotland, why can welsh and scottish MP's still vote on purely english things in Westminster. NOW THAT, really really annoys me beyond words...... ie university fees etc etc etc.

 

[Quillan]

I don't know if Rabbie is talking about people or MP's when he says the English don't want Scotland to leave the union the only people I can find you have actually said something in public from the UK government side is quite contradictory.

In response to Salmond's statement about what the question, or questions, when they published in January 2012 Michael Moore, the Scottish Secretary at the time, said two things when interviewed by the BBC. Firstly that such a vote was probably not legal and could be challenged in the high court and that the chances of it becoming void were rather high because it is outside the existing powers of the Scottish parliament to hold such a vote. He then goes on to say however that "Clearly, the UK government still believes that it is in the interests of the Scottish people and economy to have a referendum sooner rather than later." (Source)

I personally think that the UK flag will stay the same for quite some time because I believe that Salmond has not really thought this through properly and the cost (£10M estimated) of just having the referendum is a pea in the ocean compared to the spiraling costs the Scots would face if there was a yes vote. As already pointed out there is the 'oil' question but there are many others as well which could cost both sides huge amounts of money.

I also believe that rather than giving the Scots 'options' when they vote it should be a simple yes or no question. I think it would be shame if the Scots left the union but if that's what they want well good for them. I doubt (and hope) it will have very little effect on my life.

I think the Scots have had their 'revenge' on England anyway, they sent us Gordon Brown. [;-)]

[Rabbie]

[quote user="idun"]

If Scotland leaves well, yes, the flag'll change. It has not 'always' been as it is anyway and in fact when James V1  became King in England, wasn't the scottish flag at the front of the union flag, poor description, but it was  clearer than it is now......... or is the old memory failing........ again.

As there is a parliament in Wales and Scotland, why can welsh and scottish MP's still vote on purely english things in Westminster. NOW THAT, really really annoys me beyond words...... ie university fees etc etc etc.

 

[/quote]According to Wikipedia James 1 & VI had the first Union Flag designed. It was similar to the present flag but without the red St Patricks cross. The present flag was adopted in 1801 when the Irish Parliament was merged with Westminster.

Idun, I quite agree that it is bonkers that Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs can vote on purely English matters. There should be an English parliament or regional parliaments to decide these things.

[idun]

On that link there is the scottish variant, or so it says. I reckon that scots friends have told me about this in the past.

 

Quillan, wasn't Tony Blair born in Scotland? If he was I reckon the scots have had more than their revenge.

[Mr Ceour de Lion II]

Gordon Brown was too, wasn't he?

I really don't see what Scotland will achieve by achieving independence.

[AnOther]

3rd world status ?

[Jazzer]

And Cameron with names like Donald Cameron, and a father born in Blairmore House in Aberdeenshire is obviously of some Scottish descent.

[Quillan]

To be honest do we really care, will you not sleep well worrying how they are getting on if they leave the union, probably not. I just hope the Scots have really thought it through very carefully before they vote and I wish them all the best.

[Rabbie]

I suspect the prime motivation behind the SNP campaign is to achieve the so called "Max Dev" option. Opinion polls in Scotland indicate that full independance will be rejected. A greater degree of devolution would however give the Scottish politicians more power that would flatter their egos.

As other here have said something needs to be done to stop Scottish and Welsh MPs voting on purely English matters at Westminster. Why Milliband has rejected the English parliament option escapes me.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Rabbie"]

I suspect the prime motivation behind the SNP campaign is to achieve the so called "Max Dev" option. Opinion polls in Scotland indicate that full independence will be rejected. A greater degree of devolution would however give the Scottish politicians more power that would flatter their egos.

As other here have said something needs to be done to stop Scottish and Welsh MPs voting on purely English matters at Westminster. Why Milliband has rejected the English parliament option escapes me.

[/quote]

This is where I disagree with this vote, it should be a simple yes or no. If they vote for "Max Dev" then as far as I am concerned Parliament can simply say no to them. The reason Salmond (or whatever his name is) doesn't want a simple yes or no vote is because as you pointed out it would be a no vote. Seems to me he is playing both ends of the game for himself and not for the Scottish people and quite frankly they deserve better.

[Rabbie]

I quite agree. Any referendum should be a simple Yes/No.  Of course the SNP are hoping for an emotional reaction toany vote taken just after the 700 year anniversary of Bannockburn in 2014.  

[AnOther]

[quote user="Quillan"]Seems to me he is playing both ends of the game for himself and not for the Scottish people and quite frankly they deserve better.[/quote]

I completely agree that he is an utterly self serving Walter Mittyesque character but remember the Scottish electorate voted him and the SNP in and therefore deserve what they get for being so emotionally gullible.

There were certain Scottish people I worked with offshore who sincerely believed that voting SNP would result in the English being expelled from Scotland with their property confiscated, I kid you not !

[Clarkkent]

 

To get back to the original post:

[quote user="Pommier"]So if Scotland votes for independance, will the Union flag be re-drawn excluding the Scottish flag?[/quote]

The design of the flag reflects the history of the United Kingdom but is not predicated by the composition of the Union. There is no reason to redesign it if Scotland leaves the Union, it was not redesigned following Irish independence. It has achieved an identity of its own and can continue unchanged - it will be up to Scotland to create a new flag for itself.

All the talk I have heard suggests that most Scots do not want independence. There is a case for arguing that if the Union is to be broken up then all members should should have a vote. Were that to be the case then the English vote may well be for independence from Scotland - so Scotland would not secede but would be ejected from the United Kingdom.