UKIP manifesto,.....

[NormanH]

I happen to think that the right to vote comes as part of nationality, so as a British national I should have a say in how the nation is run wherever I happen to be living.

There is a distinction between geographical location and nationality.

[Russethouse]

Hmm - My feeling is there danger is that non residents do not get a very comprehensive idea of how things actually are in practice, and can only judge on what they read or what friends (who have their own agendas) tell them. Or they rely on particular news sources which may have their own political leanings....in addition not so many things affect them directly.

 

[Quillan]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

Hmm - My feeling is there danger is that non residents do not get a very comprehensive idea of how things actually are in practice, and can only judge on what they read or what friends (who have their own agendas) tell them. Or they rely on particular news sources which may have their own political leanings....in addition not so many things affect them directly.

[/quote]

Not much different from the residents then. How much effect do you think newspapers like the DM, Sun etc have on working class people. What was the phrase in the 92 election "It's The Sun Wot Won It" and they did it by maligning the Labour party and Neil Kinnock in particular. I think living in a country for quite a few years helps you understand how things really are in practice as well.

The issue of tax without representation goes back centuries and in my mind it holds true to day in some ways. If you pay tax in a country then you have the right to representation because it is your money the government in the country you reside in that is being spent. The alternative is that you pay tax in your country of origin i.e. Brits pay their taxes to the UK and not France.

In the case of those paying tax in France they shouldn't have a vote in the UK because they don't pay tax their. It's up to those that live in the UK and pay their taxes their to decide how their money is spent.

Hopefully most of this will be sorted out when we have a federal system and Brussels will collect all taxes then pass them on to each state.

[PaulT]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]

Once again, au contraire, Norman.
2. I think you may find, and Mr CdL is a shining example of same, that the USA has, to a large extent, been successful in attracting people who embrace its culture (using that word in its broadest sense, for comedic effect) and ethos. Have a look at the number of people in the USA who fly their flag outside their home, who stand up for their country whatever idiocy it may perpetrate, and you will see a bunch of immigrants or descendants of immigrants who have assimilated and become American.

[/quote]

I think that you will find that the native Indians, the indigenous population, would say that the culture - their culture - has been destroyed by all the immigrants.

[powerdesal]

Quillan,

''Hopefully most of this will be sorted out when we have a federal system and Brussels will collect all taxes then pass them on to each state.''

I appreciate your federalist view but.....not all of us share the view of it's desirability.

[NickP]

[quote user="Quillan"]        

Hopefully most of this will be sorted out when we have a federal system and Brussels will collect all taxes then pass them on to each state.

[/quote]

About as much chance of that happening as being handcuffed to a ghost, thank goodness. [Www]

[Russethouse]

Q, apart from you, just who is it that wants this federal system - lets not count Germany.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Russethouse"]Q, apart from you, just who is it that wants this federal system - lets not count Germany.[/quote]

Just try Googling "who wants a federal Europe". Many can see beyond their ancient bigotry and the end of their nose. Nothing personal I should add.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="Russethouse"]Q, apart from you, just who is it that wants this federal system - lets not count Germany.[/quote]

I am not opposed to the idea but it is not high on my list of priorities. I don't see it happening in my life time if at all. It's just too sensible a solution to be adopted.

[woolybanana]

Countries like Belgium which are federal and always part of some alliance or other (eg Benelux) might be happy with it but I have never met a Frenchman, German, Italian or Spaniard who want a Brussocentric federal dictatorship.

[Russethouse]

It may well be sensible but who would vote for it?

It can never be the United States of Europe, the countries involved are just too old and established, unlike when the USA was formed .

I don't think it will happen in my lifetime, or even my children's

[YCCMB]

At the risk of repeating myself, I am going to repeat myself.

I find it somewhat odd that, since the former Soviet Bloc began to unravel, the Berlin wall came down and Yugoslavia became half a dozen different countries, there has been a slow, steady creep towards some sort of United States of Europe. If, indeed, as some believe, it's such a jolly wonderful idea, how come all of Eastern Europe couldn't wait to dismantle their version of the same idea?  The East is slowly becoming the West, and vice-versa.

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="Russethouse"]Q, apart from you, just who is it that wants this federal system - lets not count Germany.[/quote]

Just try Googling "who wants a federal Europe". Many can see beyond their ancient bigotry and the end of their nose. Nothing personal I should add.

[/quote] Quillan, I have already said that I accept your federalist viewpoint but don't agree with it. Everyone has the right to their own opinion even if you don't agree with it. There is, in my opinion, no reason to be insulting ( your 'bigotry' comment ) if / when you are not in agreement. Such insults are not civilised nor democratic.

[Quillan]

[quote user="powerdesal"][quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="Russethouse"]Q, apart from you, just who is it that wants this federal system - lets not count Germany.[/quote]

Just try Googling "who wants a federal Europe". Many can see beyond their ancient bigotry and the end of their nose. Nothing personal I should add.

[/quote] Quillan, I have already said that I accept your federalist viewpoint but don't agree with it. Everyone has the right to their own opinion even if you don't agree with it. There is, in my opinion, no reason to be insulting ( your 'bigotry' comment ) if / when you are not in agreement. Such insults are not civilised nor democratic.[/quote]

It's not insulting, it is true. Many people, particularly in the UK and are of a certain age or greater still hold certain bigoted views about particular countries in Europe. As an example my wife's mother always hated the French because she was bought up during WW2 in the east end of London. Almost every day when she went to school there would be an extra empty desk in the school somewhere because another child had died in the Blitz. Her view was that this happened only because the French never fought the Germans and just gave up. I know, through history as I was not born then, that this was not the case but never the less that was her bigoted view of the French. My father would never buy German or Japanese goods because of the war.

The Greeks and I think some Spanish and Italians made references to Hitler with regards to the Germans because Germany told them to cut their spending before they would receive any loans. I think that the Brits in Cyprus and not very happy with the Germans either and have probably called them a few names as well.

Because of this bigotry and hate in some cases there are people who can't see beyond the end of their noses and that the only way the planet is going to move forward is by eventually becoming one planet instead of individual countries. Only then can we eradicate things like war, starvation, poverty, pollution, disease etc although that dream won't happen for a couple of hundred years, I just hope we don't destroy the place first. That's one of many reasons I support federalism in Europe as it is one small step towards the final goal of us all living together in harmony as human beings. History has proved some of this to be true, there has not been a European war for decades thanks in part (a large part) to the EU.

Just to take up very quickly and basically the difference between the old USSR. Many ex USSR states never got the choice in being a member, they we forced under the threat of death to be a member or were 'given' to the USSR as part of both the Yalta and Potsdam conferences. The EU is democratic, we get a vote, we can vote yes or no, we can vote for anyone we like with currently the exception of the President and Finance Minister although that will change hopefully within the next ten years or so according to many.

[richard51]

 Bigotry: stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.

If the cap fits??

[Quillan]

[quote user="richard51"] Bigotry: stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.

If the cap fits??
[/quote]

You underlined creed and I wondered what you meant and how religion came in to the equation with regards to my posts (I was the only one who used the word bigatory), care to explain yourself?

[powerdesal]

[quote user="Quillan"][quote user="powerdesal"][quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="Russethouse"]Q, apart from you, just who is it that wants this federal system - lets not count Germany.[/quote]

Just try Googling "who wants a federal Europe". Many can see beyond their ancient bigotry and the end of their nose. Nothing personal I should add.

[/quote] Quillan, I have already said that I accept your federalist viewpoint but don't agree with it. Everyone has the right to their own opinion even if you don't agree with it. There is, in my opinion, no reason to be insulting ( your 'bigotry' comment ) if / when you are not in agreement. Such insults are not civilised nor democratic.[/quote]

It's not insulting, it is true. Many people, particularly in the UK and are of a certain age or greater still hold certain bigoted views about particular countries in Europe. As an example my wife's mother always hated the French because she was bought up during WW2 in the east end of London. Almost every day when she went to school there would be an extra empty desk in the school somewhere because another child had died in the Blitz. Her view was that this happened only because the French never fought the Germans and just gave up. I know, through history as I was not born then, that this was not the case but never the less that was her bigoted view of the French. My father would never buy German or Japanese goods because of the war.

The Greeks and I think some Spanish and Italians made references to Hitler with regards to the Germans because Germany told them to cut their spending before they would receive any loans. I think that the Brits in Cyprus and not very happy with the Germans either and have probably called them a few names as well.

Because of this bigotry and hate in some cases there are people who can't see beyond the end of their noses and that the only way the planet is going to move forward is by eventually becoming one planet instead of individual countries. Only then can we eradicate things like war, starvation, poverty, pollution, disease etc although that dream won't happen for a couple of hundred years, I just hope we don't destroy the place first. That's one of many reasons I support federalism in Europe as it is one small step towards the final goal of us all living together in harmony as human beings. History has proved some of this to be true, there has not been a European war for decades thanks in part (a large part) to the EU.

Just to take up very quickly and basically the difference between the old USSR. Many ex USSR states never got the choice in being a member, they we forced under the threat of death to be a member or were 'given' to the USSR as part of both the Yalta and Potsdam conferences. The EU is democratic, we get a vote, we can vote yes or no, we can vote for anyone we like with currently the exception of the President and Finance Minister although that will change hopefully within the next ten years or so according to many.

[/quote]

Quillan,

I accept that there is still hate in some quarters in respect of things they have suffered in the past, particularly WW2. However, I believe that your original ''bigotry'' comment was an implication that anyone who cannot see the ''benefits'' of a federalised Europe is a bigot, as in:-

Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats other people with hatred, contempt, and intolerance on the basis of a person's ethnicity, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.

Those of us who want to retain the sovereignty of our parent country do not hate, treat with contempt or intolerance those people of other countries. We want to be friends with and trade with them. We do not want it to be ruled by anyone other than its own elected Government. That is not bigotry in any definition.

I would dispute the effect of the EU on the lack of European wars in the last 60+ years, I would say it was due to the existence of NATO and a realisation that the MAD doctrine was a sobering point.

[Quillan]

"I believe that your original ''bigotry'' comment was an implication that anyone who cannot see the ''benefits'' of a federalised Europe is a bigot"

I don’t have a problem with people who simply don’t want to be part of the EU or a federal state and it is not they who I refer to as being bigoted.

The people I am referring to are those that give their reasons for not wanting to be in either is because, for instance, Germany is trying to take over Europe just like it did in 1939 and they are not going to be ruled by Germans. Then there are groups like Ukip who claimed more than once that they don’t want the UK involved in the EU at all and one reason (out of many) is because there are 19M Romanians waiting to swamp the UK in 2014 and the EU says we have to admit them. Be bloody interesting if 19M did turn up at the door as that’s the whole population of Romania or so I am told. These are the people I have a problem with.

But then sometimes the UK is its own worse enemy when it deals with the EU and ‘cherry picks’ just like other countries yet claims it always complies with EU legislation. As an example today in the news is that the EU is looking to take the UK to court because of its current and planed methods of dealing with EU immigrants entering the UK. The UK does not have to reinvent the wheel there is already EU legislation for ‘inactives’ as many who live in France already know. If they integrated this EU legislation in to UK law the problem would be fixed.

As to the issue of elected government well you get to elect your MEP although when you look at the UK turnout for the European Parliament it is almost the last horse in the race, people just can’t be bothered which is a great shame.

[dwmcn]

powerdesal,

You can copy and paste parts of posts, you know. I do it.

David

 

'I would dispute the effect of the EU on the lack of European wars in the last 60+ years, I would say it was due to the existence of NATO and a realisation that the MAD doctrine was a sobering point.'

 

 

[dwmcn]

wb,

Do you reall;y expect anybody to read all that rubbsh? I see Farage on TV all the time and, while I wouldn't vote for UKIP, I find him to be quite amusing, unlike other politicians.

David

[woolybanana]

Well, David, various people seem to have done so.

[Russethouse]

The people I am referring to are those that give their reasons for not wanting to be in either is because, for instance, Germany is trying to take over Europe just like it did in 1939 and they are not going to be ruled by Germans

Well you might not like it but its something I hear increasingly and it will probably take another couple of generations IMHO for this attitude to change.

[powerdesal]

dwmcn,

''powerdesal,

You can copy and paste parts of posts, you know. I do it.

David''

Thank you for the advice David, however, with my post count of 4000+ versus your 200+ I believe I may have just a tad more experience of using this forum than you do. :-)

[Quillan]

I think he means your browser putting all the html in your quotes. You might try running it in IE mode as this forum software is specifically designed for IE although some other browsers work OK if they are compatible.

[powerdesal]

I don't like IE, which is why I use Chrome.