Must have worked in UK

[SC]

Not sure where to post this, but I'm wondering if anyone can enlighten me.

Can anyone shed any light on why a UK business employing (or engaging) staff to work a winter season in France, would say that they can't employ someone who has not previously worked in the UK, although they know that the person concerned is a UK National, French resident, who has UK, French, Swiss and US "NI" numbers? (Having been born in the UK and worked in France, US, Switzerland)

Steve

[YCCMB]

It's possible - although unlikely - that it's a shortcut to being able to prove that the individual has the right to work in the UK - which is a legal obligation for UK employers to check. Failure to do so can result in a fine of up to £10K. However, if the company has had sight of the person's UK passport and this contains no exclusions, it seems odd.

You CAN have a British passport and - for example - not have the right of abode in the UK, which would preclude you from being able to work.

Mind you, you could have a British passport, and have worked in the UK and then have a right of abode certificate which has lapsed, meaning that you could have a UK work record and yet now be ineligible to work in the UK.

[idun]

I am rather surprised that they are being so fussy.

At least one major company chooses to ignore, maybe bypass labour laws in both France and the UK, well that is our experience.

[EuroTrash]

Agree with other posters - when UK companies employ staff to work abroad they need to obtain workers S1s for them to cover their backs, and presumably there is a problem with claiming you are 'seconding' a UK worker overseas if that person has never worked in the UK in the first place.

I don't think any company would dare to 'ignore' the labour laws. But there seems to be an accepted procedure that most of the operators follow to keep everyone happy.

[idun]

No, not in the situation I know about. The workers were told to get EHICs, as I said, a major UK company either ignoring the rules or just skating round them, in order to pay their staff less than a pound an hour and yes for the winter season,

[EuroTrash]

Yes the workers need EHICs but they do also have S1s obtained for them, that is standard procedure. I've worked for several operators (including Holidaybreak and PGL) and the way the health insurance works is that the company have their own private insurance policy that covers all their employees, and the insurers requires them all to have EHICs. Don't underestimate the operators, they aren't so stupid as to ignore the rules. The big companies have specialist lawyers who know how to bend rules without breaking them, for instance the contract that you sign includes the value of the accommodation in the remuneration package so that on paper the pay is in line with minimum wage. The small companies who can't afford their own legal department copy the contracts and procedures set up by the big companies so one way and another everyone in the industry has it all sewn up pretty watertight, otherwise they would be leaving themselves wide open to disgruntled employees, of whom there are plenty every season.

[idun]

 No Eurotrash, it did not work like that. The minimum wage was mentioned on the contract and then they took everything but 250pounds for lodgings and food, not that there always was food....... etc, for a months work, which they said would be 37 hours a week, which was in fact 50 to 60 hours per week and no overtime payment, as apparently 250 quid a month in your hand for such long hours was reasonable. Also two time sheets were filled in, one which any french inspectors would see was for the 37hours, the other taken by the manager.

I checked, not correct in the UK, but as the work was being done in France, they could do nothing. And I checked with the Inspection de Travail and not correct in France either. How the Inspection de Travail would have dealt with this, I have no idea, as the person had a row with the Manager and left.

As I said, a major company and I just wonder how many skiers will book with them and will actually be looked after by people on more or less slave wages. I cannot put into words how much this prqctice  disgusts me.

However, I shall contact Newcastle when I return home and ask if this specific company gets S1s, bearing in mind UK employment rules. Still how could S1s be issued when the only declared salary in the uk is 250pounds a month,  not even enough to pay NI insurance contributions on it.

[EuroTrash]

I know I know, unfortunately it is how the industry works, it has been going on for years and isn't about to change. It takes a certain type of person to accept it and go back year after year, not to make money because they know they won't, but because they love the life and don't count the hours. A lot of employees don't accept it which is why I said, there are plenty of disgruntled employees who want to sue the company. But, the company has covered its back - it is entitled to deduct accommodation and food from wages, we all know it isn't really fair but it will have no problem proving on paper that the costs are reasonable for live-in accommodation in an upmarket ski resort in ski season.

[idun]

 WHAT, that is not how anything ´works´, it is against the employment laws in the UK to take most of the salary for such things........... and most certainly illegal in France too.  If they took the 250 pounds a month towards lodging and food that would be about legal, leaving the employees with a living wage of 1000pounds less stoppages.

To take 1000 a month is not on. In fact what is happening is that the employees are actually not only serving the tourists, but paying for ´their´ holiday. Shame on anyone who ever ever complains when on a package tour, the person you are complaining to is working for less than a 1pound an hour.

no pound sign that I can find on this spannish keyboard.

I cannot put into words my disgust with this ´accepted´ practice!

[EuroTrash]

Nonetheless the company would justify it on paper, based on the going rate for a month's accommodation in a ski resort.

I totally understand what you're saying but the bottom line is that if someone is looking for a proper job where they will earn money, this isn't it. Basically what the company is offering is an extended working holiday in a great location with accommodation, food, all travel paid for, a little spending money and a few perks, free ski passes etc, plus for students it's something they can put on their CV. The company should make this clear at the outset, then if people aren't happy with that, they don't sign up. It's the same deal with campsite staff in the summer season. You get out of it what you put in. You know you won't get rich but if you go out determined to have a good season, and you are lucky enough to get good customers and a good team to work with, it can be a great experience of the kind that money can't buy. I worked a few seasons and one in particular I still look back on as one of the best times of my life. I suppose you will say that it's morally wrong to let yourself be taken advantage of like that, but like it or not that is how the tourism industry operates, whether you are a ski rep or a barman or you work in a hotel you will be expected to put in long hours for crap wages because the profit margins are low, but the industry relies on perks and a touch of glamour to make up for the crap wages and try and attract workers.

If the company didn't make it clear what the deal was and pretended it was going to be a proper job with a proper wage, and if there are things stated in the contract that were not fulfilled, then you have a case. But normally if you read the small print it is all set out in the contract, which normally the company is very careful to make sure you have signed and they have a copy of it, so that being the case there isn't a lot you can do.

[idun]

 Now I believe that you are taking the michael with your comments about this.

It isn´t as if I don´t know people who did winter seasons in France, I know a lot of people who still do. They have to pay part of their salary towards their lodgement and food, they get a ski pass, which they can rarely use and they work long hours, which are not regulated as far as any of us can tell, but they get most of their basic salary. I talk of french people working the season in France.

The ONLY difference is that a bus is sent with the UK workers AND I checked the insurance company charges about 70 pounds a head for seasonal insurance.  What, it costs a couple of hundred pounds for these extras. And lodged in a ski ressort, well, nowhere that the clients would be lodged that is for sure so how could anyone compare.

The UK company I am talking about made the employees, bof, employees indeed, sign two time sheets, so why did they do that, maybe because they knew that the number of hours worked exceeded french working rules............. I agree that the french are lapse with controlling the tourist industry, but the company concerned certainly covered their backs. Also IF the french authorities knew, they would not allow workers to have most of their salary ´taken´from them.

And making everything clear, well yes, get to the ski station three weeks early and even if there is snow, no ski pass is provided until just as the customers arrive, and then there is little time to ski anyway.

I do not care if some one does this for an experience, it is simple exploitation, no surprise they have a big turn over of staff.  Is there anything wrong with a proper wage for work, there is not, and for all I do a lot of voluntary work, if I am in a paid job that is what I expect to  get............ paid a proper wage.   And remember the french have to pay a proper wage, shame that these british companies who do this are such a disgrace.

[SC]

Thank you all for your contributions and for identifying the S1 as the probable bottleneck.

Our daughter is enjoyiong couple of years "paid travel" after the best part of twenty years in French and UK education, and last winter had a wonderful time working at an up-market ski lodge in Swizerland. Her language skills and qualifications enabled her to work in customer care and admin and she had a great time, coming home with great snowboarding abilities and a boyfriend.  Plus other family members were put up free for a week or two at the lodge and made welcome. So that part of it is much as ET has suggested, however the pay, deductions, and final pocket money was very much as Idun has laid out. Since then, she's au paired/taught in Como and is currently selling ice creams in Corsica.

The Euro-experience has so been better than at Camp America, where it appeared to me that after taking into account the upfront fee, camp charge for accommodation and food, and hefty 50% share of wages to the UK agency, it appeared that she worked for nothing.

Speaking as someone who has been self employed in the UK and France for the past 37 years, there would have been times when I earned nothing for many hours of work, however the lifestyle and experience (and successes) have been, on balance, worth it.

She may have a S1 as she has French health cover as our dependent. I will speak to she who guards the armoire that holds the health dossiers later.

Steve