epetition - MPs for UK Expats

[nomoss]

Another petition to give some voting rights to non-UK-resident Brits.

It doesn't seem to be very well supported, so far only 2947 signatures, but that's 6 more than when I looked 20 minutes ago[:D]

Seems Brits are not going to go down without at least a whimper.

BTW, if you do sign, ignore the red "Postcode not recognised" flag when a French postcode is entered and just click the "Sign" button.

Edit: http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/55085  [:$]

 

 

[NormanH]

Is there a link?

[woolybanana]

Frankly, I would be much more interested in the provision of UK MPs to represent expats. France has them and it seems to work well.

Say one for Spain and Portugal, one for France and Belgium, one for Germany and all points east etc. , depending on the numbers of expats around. One for the Gulf and Saudi?

The Foreign Office has complex interests to represent and individuals can sometimes get pushed to one side.

[nomoss]

[quote user="woolybanana"]Frankly, I would be much more interested in the provision of UK MPs to represent expats. France has them and it seems to work well. Say one for Spain and Portugal, one for France and Belgium, one for Germany and all points east etc. , depending on the numbers of expats around. One for the Gulf and Saudi? The Foreign Office has complex interests to represent and individuals can sometimes get pushed to one side.[/quote]

 

Sorry, that's what it's about, I forgot the link [:$]

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/55085

 

 

[woolybanana]

Ah, well done Woolybanana, right on the button.

[nomoss]

I have changed the Subject from "Votes" to "MPs"

 

 

[NormanH]

2950 when I voted.

I think the crux is that you do not lose your nationality or citizenship because you change your address.

[nomoss]

2960 this morning.

Don't think there's much hope at this rate[:(]

 

 

[NickP]

I don't understand this, I always thought that ex-pats were only abroad for working purposes? So they can still vote in the UK. If you immigrate to another country then do the proper thing take out nationality and vote there, simples. Oh I see you can't vote for the president, then your beef is with the country you immigrated to. Why should the British residents pay for more MPs for people who don't live there? [:P]

[NormanH]

Because we pay taxes. No taxation without representation remember that principle?

And I agree we are immigrants, but what has that to do with nationality?

[NickP]

[quote user="NormanH"]Because we pay taxes. No taxation without representation remember that principle?
And I agree we are immigrants, but what has that to do with nationality?
[/quote]

I pay taxes in France on my holiday home and I can't vote there either, but then I don't expect to. What you want is the best of both worlds. Vote where you live! Also you are being economical with the truth, you can vote in local and European elections, no matter what nationality you are

[YCCMB]

Surely only some "we" pay taxes? That principle doesn't apply to people who don't have a public sector pension. If the argument you put forward is to be taken literally, Norman, then surely it would be wrong for people who have left the UK and pay no taxes there to have a say in the government of their former country of residence?

[NormanH]

So nationality and citizenship don't include the right to vote?

[YCCMB]

You know they do, though. After 15 years of absence, it's not unreasonable to expect that you'd make alternative arrangements, surely? Up until that point, you've lost nothing. It's not as if 15 years isn't a generous amount of time in which to make alternative arrangements! If, OTOH, you want to have the best of both worlds....a life in another country and a vote in the UK...then surely losing your vote (whilst nonetheless already having acquired voting rights in local elections) is one of the prices to be paid. And, realistically, having a vote is only a salve. It's not going to change very much, in the great scheme of things, is it? And frankly, neither would having an MP. That makes the quantum leap of assumption that all British people living abroad would agree on what they want, and an MP would have the clout to ensure it was executed. Fat chance!

[nomoss]

[quote user="NickP"]I don't understand this, I always thought that ex-pats were only abroad for working purposes? So they can still vote in the UK. If you immigrate to another country then do the proper thing take out nationality and vote there, simples. Oh I see you can't vote for the president, then your beef is with the country you immigrated to. Why should the British residents pay for more MPs for people who don't live there? [:P][/quote]

 

Your elegant and erudite observations, echoed by our lady of the riverside, do have a certain validity.

However, we are not immigrants here, we are exercising our right to live in any EU country we choose, as you, no doubt are exercising your right to own property here and use it freely for yourself, family and friends under the same conditions as a national or a resident of France.

Both our children, sent to schools and universities there in an attempt to encourage them to accept and embrace the values of Great Britain, have rejected the country and live elsewhere.

However, besides depending on the UK for a large proportion of our income, we are British, not French, and still feel great attachments there.

Without wishing to interfere with the life of Britons old and new, we would like to feel we have at least a small amount of representation in the form of an MP to look after our interests.

This is especially important now as the UK is moving rapidly towards leaving, or even being asked to leave, the EU, and we and many many others are already considering the implications of this.

If the expense is a problem for you or others, I, and, I am sure, others given such a vote would be willing to pay the costs of the privilege.

 

 

[Rabbie]

[quote user="nomoss"]

[quote user="NickP"]I don't understand this, I always thought that ex-pats were only abroad for working purposes? So they can still vote in the UK. If you immigrate to another country then do the proper thing take out nationality and vote there, simples. Oh I see you can't vote for the president, then your beef is with the country you immigrated to. Why should the British residents pay for more MPs for people who don't live there? [:P][/quote]

 

Your elegant and erudite observations, echoed by our lady of the riverside, do have a certain validity.

However, we are not immigrants here, we are exercising our right to live in any EU country we choose, as you, no doubt are exercising your right to own property here and use it freely for yourself, family and friends under the same conditions as a national or a resident of France.

Both our children, sent to schools and universities there in an attempt to encourage them to accept and embrace the values of Great Britain, have rejected the country and live elsewhere.

However, besides depending on the UK for a large proportion of our income, we are British, not French, and still feel great attachments there.

Without wishing to interfere with the life of Britons old and new, we would like to feel we have at least a small amount of representation in the form of an MP to look after our interests.

This is especially important now as the UK is moving rapidly towards leaving, or even being asked to leave, the EU, and we and many many others are already considering the implications of this.

If the expense is a problem for you or others, I, and, I am sure, others given such a vote would be willing to pay the costs of the privilege.

[/quote]I agree with NickP and YCCMB. People know (or ought to know) the rules about voting when they live outside the UK so it is up to them to make an informed decision before they emigrate.

Until we know the number of voters for each ex-pat MP it is not possible to calculate the costs but they would be considerable at least £70,000 in salary for the MP and a similar amount for this/her state funded staff plus expenses which we know are often large. There would also be election expenses, trips to/from their constituency and the actual costs of providing office space for them. It soon adds up to a considerable sum. I think, Nomoss, you may be making a larger commitment than you realise.

 

[woolybanana]

The answer, unfortunately, which the UK gov might give is that there are Euro MPs for that.

Of course there should be MP's for the expat community though the mechanics of it might be complex.

The cost is far outweighed by the democratic exercise.

And, would you please stop calling me an emigrant, I find it insulting.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="woolybanana"]The answer, unfortunately, which the UK gov might give is that there are Euro MPs for that. Of course there should be MP's for the expat community though the mechanics of it might be complex. The cost is far outweighed by the democratic exercise. And, would you please stop calling me an emigrant, I find it insulting.[/quote]Apologies for calling you an emigrant although I don't know why you should regard it as insulting. I merely meant it in its literal sense of someone who has moved from their country. Paradoxically it seems that when we move from one country to another we are simultaneously both immigrants and emigrants and indeed migrants. [:)]

 

[nomoss]

[quote user="Rabbie"]

Until we know the number of voters for each ex-pat MP it is not possible to calculate the costs but they would be considerable at least £70,000 in salary for the MP and a similar amount for this/her state funded staff plus expenses which we know are often large. There would also be election expenses, trips to/from their constituency and the actual costs of providing office space for them. It soon adds up to a considerable sum. I think, Nomoss, you may be making a larger commitment than you realise.[/quote]

 

I don't think that the amount per individual would be crippling if even a only small percentage of UK overseas residents elected to vote and contribute.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/exclusive-millions-of-expat-votes-will-be-wooed-for-2015-election-8780904.html

 

 

[NickP]

nomoss says " if the expense is a problem for you or others, I, and, I am sure, others given such a vote would be willing to pay the costs of the privilege."

That is easily said, but probably impossible to carry out. Look I don't believe that it is right for people who emigrate permanently to have a say on what happens in my local area. You do get the privilege for fifteen years and I don't have a problem with that, but come on after fifteen years surely your loyalty is not in the UK.     As to why it's important for you to have a UK MP if the UK leaves Europe is beyond me, after all do the Brits who emigrated to Canada and Australia etc. get UK representation ? Still If we do leave you may be able to apply for Scotish citizenship. [:D]       It may have passed you by but Brits owned properties in France and Spain long before the UK joined the EU. Plus  ownership of French property is not available to me under the same conditions as a French national or a French resident. The right for me to use my property has a yearly time limit, but I knew that when I passed my money over, including the fact I would pay slightly more local taxes than residents.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="nomoss"]

However, we are not immigrants here, we are exercising our right to live in any EU country we choose,[/quote]

Tell THAT to Mr Farage! [:D]

[nomoss]

What a witty comment!

 

 

[nomoss]

[quote user="NickP"]

nomoss says " if the expense is a problem for you or others, I, and, I am sure, others given such a vote would be willing to pay the costs of the privilege."

That is easily said, but probably impossible to carry out. Look I don't believe that it is right for people who emigrate permanently to have a say on what happens in my local area.  Sorry I missed commenting on that remark in my earlier reply, but the proposal is for new MPs, not to interfere in your patch.

You do get the privilege for fifteen years and I don't have a problem with that, but come on after fifteen years surely your loyalty is not in the UK. I don't know why you think that. I have many reasons, but I'm not going into details here.

As to why it's important for you to have a UK MP if the UK leaves Europe is beyond me, I said "This is especially important now as the UK is moving rapidly towards leaving, or even being asked to leave, the EU, and we and many many others are already considering the implications of this"

The importance is to have MPs representing EU residents to be able to influence any decision to leave the EU or not.

after all do the Brits who emigrated to Canada and Australia etc. get UK representation ? I don't see why they shouldn't. Once again, we have not emigrated, we have moved within the EU.

Still If we do leave you may be able to apply for Scotish citizenship. [:D] I see no logic or humour in that strange remark.

It may have passed you by but Brits owned properties in France and Spain long before the UK joined the EU. No it didn't pass me by, but the fact is irrelevant

Plus  ownership of French property is not available to me under the same conditions as a French national or a French resident. The right for me to use my property has a yearly time limit, That is a curious distortion. You can use your property as much as you wish, but if you use it for more than a certain amount, it becomes your residence and you pay taxes here - just like everyone else does.

but I knew that when I passed my money over, including the fact I would pay slightly more local taxes than residents. I've never heard of that one. Please explain. - I think second home owners should pay a lot more for the privilege than those who actually live in their houses, so I hope you do so. 

[/quote]

 

 

[powerdesal]

NickP wrote the following post at 16/01/2014 20:09:

I don't understand this, I always thought that ex-pats were only abroad for working purposes? So they can still vote in the UK.

Nick, I was an expat working abroad for some 20 years, no voting rights either in UK or in the country in which I worked.

I am now an ex-expat - an immigrant / emigrant depending on which side you consider.

[Judith]

I've already signed the petition, if my memory serves me right, because I do believe that the discrepancies in the various EU counries on voting rights needs some clarification, and that the debate on this is not going to go away.

That said, it is interesting to see the different viewpoints ... as at this moment every EU citizen has the right to move to another EU country (with a few exceptions I know) so the terminology of immigrant or emigrant is somewhat pointless ... the free movement means just that - there is no limit to moving ...

I have certainly wondered about becoming a French citizen - but ....

I love France (usually), the French people (most the time), the French language (except for its most peculiar quirks), I think French politics (even ignoring the current "scandale" pretty useless), I have some French friends of long standing from before I lived here, and some newer, who, by chance, almost all can speak English .... I've always wanted to live in France (long before the free movement allowed it more easily), ... at this moment have no intention of returning to the UK to live, and I could probably relatively easily pass the the language requirements  and French knowledge requirements to become a French citizen ...

but hereby lies the rub .... I still feel distinctly British, still love the country (usually), its people and its language (on the whole), love going back for longish holidays (sometimes) ... and have no real problem with whether I die in France or the UK - but when I thought seriously about French citizenship, I realised that in spite of all this, I still do not feel French enough to become a French national.

Hence why we need those MPs to represent our interests!