Crimea

[Gardian]

Just a thought for discussion.

Its all the bad old Russians, doing what they've always done and they're the bad guys.

But are they? The majority of the Crimean population aligns itself with Russia rather than Ukraine.  The latter country is in turmoil and will take time to sort itself out. Additionally (and probably crucially), the Russian Navy has its southern base in the Crimea, providing access to the Med.

Now of course, we wouldn't do such a thing would we?  The Falklands?  Not quite the same I agree, but ..........

And what if Canada or Russia laid claims to Alaska? How would the USA feel? Unlikely, but you can never say never. You can see how many in the world view 'the West' as always assuming that it has the moral ground.

OK .............. head down below the parapet! 

 

[andyh4]

Well made points Gardian, but - playing devils advocate - if the majority of people in Helensburgh vote against Scottish independence and the rest of the country vote for, would we consider it OK for English forces to take over and protect the local population and the nearby submarine base?

I think there are only hard questions here and few easy answers.

[YCCMB]

Working as I have over the past few years with a number of "Russians", it has become increasingly evident to me (and, probably, shame on me for not realising before) that there are (with apologies to M&S) Russians and ethnic Russians. Why, only a couple of weeks ago I was doing a lesson on nationalities with a little lad and his dad, from Kazakhstan, and I made the schoolgirl error of saying "So, you are Kazakh". Oh dear. Despite the fact that both father and son were born there, the father informed me with pride and a modicum of hurt at my mistake, that they were not Kazakh, but Russian. Kazakh people, he informed me, have quite a different physical appearance. Which is as maybe, but I expect they all have the same passport.

So, the dissolution of the former Soviet Union has left pockets of ethnic Russians all over the place, as is to be expected. Does that make all the former Soviet states fair game for Putin if there's a problem?

[idun]

I truly wish that politicians really got Pinochio's nose when they were talking about such things.

I seem to remember that there was no good reason what so ever to invade Iraq so many years after the Gulf War, which IMO would have been the time to do it, but not those years later with all the lies.

So Cameron and Hague, well, what hypocrites.

Are the russians wrong, yup, I believe that they are. There is nothing to stop the 'russian' ukranians also having their own revolution, as in 'their own' rather than Dictator Putin stepping in.

I do rather like the idea of all the amounts of the money filtered away to the west by russian leaders and oligarchs being published so that the great russian population can see it. And maybe denying these people access to it. Really gets up my nose that us little people hit brick walls with our titchy amounts, as if we are money laundering, how on earth do these banks prove that the billions are all honest?

[Pickles]

Personally, I think:

We let down Poland in 1945

We let down Hungary in 1956

We let down Czechoslovakia in 1968

We are about to let down Ukraine. And the enemy's the same.

[NormanH]

A lot of places have been undermined by an enemy who remains the same:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

[woolybanana]

Sorry Norman, that is not relevant.

This is RUSSIAN aggression, similar to that of Hitler who also used protection of minorities as an excuse for invasion.

Obama and the West have lowered their guard over the last X years and allowed China and Russia to get away with murder. We have forgotten what gremlins are out there.

And now our response is about as much use as a used banana skin!

[Frederick]

Did the aggression not come from within ?....I believe there are in  excess of 30 elected members if the Ukraine parliament who were put there by some pretty nasty right wing groups . These groups took big advantage of the riots and have  gained  power and it seems that whatever voted decree comes out of the parliament they will kill it straight away if it does not go their way.Such is their influence now .

 They seem to want to look  back to and follow the way the N a z i party gained a hold over Germany i the 1930's  . Who wants these characters on the loose in Europe again ?. We have enough of our own lurking  in the background and kept there ... If Russia's show of strength at the moment makes them and others think twice and result in a new elected government for Ukraine that is going to work as we all expect it to .....Then we may  just end up being thankful Putin took the action he did .

[woolybanana]

Putin has been undermining Ukraine for years, most notably with his blackmail on the price of gas and now his refusal to allow a democratic country to join the political/economic grouping which it chooses.

If there is a rising right wing, it is largely down to his manipulation.

[andyh4]

You may well be right Frederick, but in just how many ways do these people differ from say BNP or extreme UKIP representatives or in France NF? Or any other extremist party, lest I be held as a pinko.

I have heard over the last few days many references to N a z i sympathisers stirring it up in the Ukraine. This makes me wonder just how many real supporters from ww2 are still alive, having survived the war, Stalin's purges and have lived on to reach probably at least 85 years of age and are now stirring up trouble - probably both of them dribbling into their vodka in a bar in Odessa.

I think the slur is being used simply as a propaganda ploy to discredit anyone of a nationalist disposition in the Ukraine.

After nearly 95 years of Russian "Friendship and Federation" since the revolution, is it any surprise that there are nationalists?

[YCCMB]

What is odd, to me, speaking to Russians who live in the UK, is the underlying feeling among some of them (and they're living in the UK because they want to, they have jobs here and some want their children to have a British education) that they had it a lot better when the USSR still existed. For the most part, these are educated people with good jobs and so on, yet they feel that life was better for them when their every need was met by the state. To use a British description, these are middle-class people, not oligarchs or the super-rich. They seem to have forgotten any of the negatives...

[Hoddy]

When my great-grandfather was serving in the Crimea in 1855 most of its inhabitants were Catars. The majority of the Catars were deported to places like Uzbekistan (sp?) and replaced by ethnic Russians in 1944.

I really fear for what is going to happen there. It seems to me that Obama and the European Union are being very weak, even given our shortage of oil and gas.

Hoddy

[Frederick]

[quote user="andyh4"]You may well be right Frederick, but in just how many ways do these people differ from say BNP or extreme UKIP representatives or in France NF? Or any other extremist party, lest I be held as a pinko.

I have heard over the last few days many references to N a z i sympathisers stirring it up in the Ukraine. This makes me wonder just how many real supporters from ww2 are still alive, having survived the war, Stalin's purges and have lived on to reach probably at least 85 years of age and are now stirring up trouble - probably both of them dribbling into their vodka in a bar in Odessa.

I think the slur is being used simply as a propaganda ploy to discredit anyone of a nationalist disposition in the Ukraine.

After nearly 95 years of Russian "Friendship and Federation" since the revolution, is it any surprise that there are nationalists?[/quote]

This  lot do not  remind  me of the BNP or France NF or extreme UKIP  .These people mean business and there are a lot of them . They seem in my opinion to be expecting they can make changes ... But just WHAT changes ... who will suffer if they get their way ?  No Doubt the other European nationalists  will want some of the same if they see these Svoboda  people come out on top .

http://vimeo.com/51396863

Putin has shown he will stand by the Russian speakers  and has let everyone know he means business .  In my opinion he has an opportunity to play the good guy  now .  He could offer to put some of his troops in blue helmets .Ukraine could do the same  and under a joint command  headed by UN appointed Generals  they could keep the peace and  both  sides save face . That could take the steam out of this  while the  situation calms down and they get a government that all sides are happy with and make sure the extream nationalists don't do something stupid with weapons .