Legal position on a devis?

[Nick]

Hello,

I have engaged a good mason to do some re-pointing on our stone cottage. He comes rcommended, but unfortunately takes a long time to perform the work laid out on the devis.

I paid a deposit of €8000 (30%) in July to complete the re-pointing and he has not started the work at all.

I'm now concerned 4 months on that i have no come-back on his tardiness. I've spoken with him, asked him, but there are still too many excuses he finds for not starting the work - the weather always being a favourite.

Where do I stand about 'demanding' he starts the work. i don't believe i have been unreasonable and he has €8000 of my hard earnt euros!! 

Are there any easier ways than resorting to the legal system?

I know this is france and things take longer than the uk, but as he has my money he should at least commit to doing the job as a priority.

[Deimos]

I have been waiting a lot longer than that for artisans to start work. In my case it might be getting closer now as last month it changed from "next month" to "next week".

Ian

[Sunday Driver]

How big is your cottage?  I have seen other quotes for pointing a stone house at €35-40 a square metre, so €26,500 seems an awful lot.  Plus, taking such a massive deposit from you then doing nothing for four months is taking the p*** somewhat.  I've never paid a penny up front for any work done on the house.

Sounds like you need to ask for your money back until such time as he actually starts the work.  Otherwise, tell him you're going to cancel the devis and refer him to a hussier to get the money back.  If, as I suspect, he's spent the money already, then the threat may be sufficient to jolt him into actually starting the job.

 

 

[Nick]

The deposit is for re-pointing and other internal work, so does not reflect just the costs for the re-pointing. However, as you say, my biggest concern is that he is just not bothered until I shout! Is is normal to sign the devis with a definitive start and estimated end date? i ommited this, so wondering if it's just not my own fault for not being thorough!

[Sunday Driver]

To enforce any timescales, they should have been written into the devis, so you may be on thin ice here.  That said, it's worth making a noise about the money he's had already.....

 

 

[Llwyncelyn]

Nick when we first came here in 2001 we too were asked for a 30% deposit and on this forum are lots of people who are aghast at having to pay a deposit and indeed would never do so.  However this was against a background here in Normandie where we had an English bandit and who was well known at the time.  Thus he gave all of us a bad name. However they(the artisans) delivered on time.

Now no deposit and we signed a devis way back in April for electrical work and I have chased and chased and needed the electrical work which was for outside stuff ahead of the winter.  I see him every Saturday at the market he smiles I smile but it gets us nowhere.

I am either now going to be faced with saying to him thanks but no thanks and starting it all over again.  I will reflect upon it but what can one do no money has past hands just the inconvenience of it all. Probably start all over again.

Your position is different you have money out on the hoof.

 

 

[Catalpa]

If the old pointing has to be dug out before repointing commences, I've seen quotes of 80 - 100 euros per sq metre. It is time-consuming work if done properly. Even so, you might want to work out what your square metreage of pointing is and consider whether his charges might be a tad high.

We're well experienced with artisans - well, one artisan, our stonemason - taking the P over start / continuation / finish dates. I recommend the following.

Write to your artisan stating all the relevant info so far - date of signing of the devis, date of payment of any monies, amounts, etc.

Express your dissatisfaction at his non-appearance and outline the impact of his tardiness on you (if any) - damp continuing to come through the wall or whatever.

Request a meeting and tell the artisan the date and time of that meeting. Don't ask him to phone you. You tell him. You might want to make it a time of day when you know it will be convenient for him to attend.

Tell him his agreement to the meeting is assumed if he does not contact you to re-arrange.

You could, if it suited you, tell him that he can return to you your 8,000 euros - with interest! - if he no longer wishes to carry out the work. But you may not want to offer him that option.

If you want to check at this stage that he is insured to do your work and it will carry his 10-year guarantee, ask him to bring a copy of his decennel (decennal?) to the meeting. You should take a copy.

Send the letter recommandé avec avis de réception.

At the meeting, get a new "guaranteed" date from the artisan - and ideally, a completion date. You won't be much further forward if he starts, does 3 days work and disappears again for another 4 months. He undoubtedly won't put anything in writing so you must - state the date, time of the meeting he attended, who else was there, exactly what was agreed, etc. Confirm all the details and send it recommandé avec avis etc.

Benefit of the registered letter is that you receive the signed chitty confirming who accepted receipt of the letter. Then, if you do have to start proceedings you have a pile of receipted letters to back up your complaint. Also have a word at the chambre de metiers at which he's likely to be registered. It seems that they do have some influence over slow artisans particularly if chunks of money have been paid.

We had been told - and our experience bears it out - that once you start sending registered letters, it indicates to the artisan that he can no longer mess you about, that you're serious and he needs to commit to doing the work. Whether this is true or not, it did work for us.

We have had a lot of work done by a variety of artisans over the past 2 years and while some of them have had 30% on the day that they have started, no company has requested money on signing the devis.

[hastobe]

We are four months on from the visit of our electrician and still haven't even had the devis.  As the french CGT position has absolutely no relevance to us (our UK CGT will be higher) we are considering just bring in Brit friends to do the job.

Terrible I know - but tough - we tried - they failed.

Kathie

[Chancer]

I accepted a devis for roofing work and paid the 30% up front, I was not in a position to chase the company as I was travelling the world and had left it in the hands of a French friend, it took them 8 months to start the work (which they never actually completed but that's another story) which apparently is not unusual around here.

Nowadays I would negotiate the payments to start when the artisan does and would ask for a start date and then ask for it to be put on the devis.

However this is all hypothetical as usually I cannot get anyone to even quote for work!

I have had two jobs done on the black by employees on their off days or holidays and in both cases they have earned serious money (if counted on an hourly basis) but in each case have worked very hard and fast.

The plaquist who did my bands wanted 50% as soon as he arrived to start work even though he was not supplying materials (I negotiated stage payments at the finish of each day), it seemed that he had been bumped for money after finishing a job before and could not do anything about it.

I explained my concern (that he wouldn't return after day one with the 50% in his pocket) and he said that the proposed 50% on start was to be an equal division of risk.

Before anyone comments on using black labour I had tried for 18 months to get registered tradesman to quote.

[timc17]

Nick,

One reason why he might not want to start is the weather. This is not really the right time of  year to 'hack out' and re-point. He might even make you wait until next spring when dry weather is more predictable.

 

[Jhc]

I think you are worrying entirely unnecessarily - if he is  a proper French artisan (and it sounds like he is) then he will do the work eventually and you will be really pleased with the job.  You learn to adjust to completely different expectations and timescales the longer you live in France.  Bringing UK expectations with you will just cause your blood pressure to rise unnecessarily out of frustration. When we fist bought our place 8 years ago we paid 30% deposit for re-roofing and after 18 months of waiting and excuses we were tearing our hair out and felt we were likely to have lost the money(and sought advice on this forum).  But no, he turned up when it suited him (he clearly had loads of work on elsewhere) and did a fantastic job.   It has been a similar story with all the other artisans we have employed - in fact if any had turned up within 4 months of accepting a job then we would have rejoiced - usually the wait has been 12 to 18 months for any piece of major work by whatever type of artisan - hence it has taken 7 years to complete our plans! 

Have you checked whether he has actually banked your cheque as artisans often seem to keep them and only take them to the bank when they are about to start work and need to buy the materials.  It does not help much if you find he has not banked it as you can't cancel a French cheque without major hassle, but it might make you feel better.  Did he actually verbally promise to do it this year???  Most of the artisans round here have absolutely stacks of renovation work to do and as they never like to turn prospective customers away then it's inevitable that many will wait a long time for thier turn to come round.  Our French neighbours would say that if an artisan does not have 12 months of work ahead of him then he is likely not to be a v good artisan as its clear he is not in big demand.

[Catalpa]

[quote user="Jhc"]

I think you are worrying entirely unnecessarily - if he is  a proper French artisan (and it sounds like he is) then he will do the work eventually and you will be really pleased with the job. 

[/quote]

I strongly disagree with this belief and approach. Our experience with our stonemason is that he consistently lied about start dates and timescales and some of his work was faulty and we made him do it again at some expense to him. As an example, he originally said the work could be done while we still lived in the house. He was emphatic about this: we would not need to move out. Four months later, he told us we must move out, ideally at the start of the following month, so that he could immediately begin on the main work. We moved out several days before he needed us to. In the following SIX weeks, his staff were on site for 1/2 of one day. It was at this point we started flinging toys out of cot and registered letters at him and only at this point that his staff remained on site to do the work. He had told us we needed to be out of the house for a maximum of 2 months; the reality was 7 months.

Granite window and door sills were then the wrong size - his ouvriers told him so but he told them to fit them. When we realised, we told him to remove them and replace with those of the correct dimension. He did so. They were a different colour of granite to the first two that he'd installed (correct size) which were adjacent to the new ones. We requested he remove them and replace them with a similar stone. The final insult in this episode was the door sill for the main door was 20cms too long so the stonework had to be re-worked as by then we were nearly at August and the granite company were closing for the month. As a knock on from his incompetence, other work was delayed including roofing and woodwork that was previously okay got badly wet and marked.

Proper French artisans - and we've had plenty of those, give you realistic start and completion dates (even if they are some way ahead) and turn up when they say they will - or within a week or so, particularly if they know other work is dependent on theirs. If you're being messed about, do something about it. In our experience, French clients do not tolerate it.

[Nick]

Thanks all for your comments and advice.  I know this guy's work is good, I have seen some previous jobs that he has done. The weather is an issue (I'm in Normandy, 61) and is has been 'showers' forever recently, BUT, there are days when he could have done some work. I don't believe he is going to get the 3 weeks he requires, to be perfect weather!

On the cheque front, he has banked it, which makes me want the work doing pronto.  I'm happy to wait if he had not asked for a deposit, but when cash is sitting in his bank and not mine, earning interest for the last 4 months, i do feel somewhat frustrated.

If I could start my career again, I'd be a plumber, electrician or mason in France

[tom]

i feel a new career coming on. we bought a house in the gard in august 05.we have had various people as local artisans and it just doesn't work.we have had the roof sorted twice and it still leaks,now onto our newly laid wooden floor which the specialist joiners can't be arsed finishing because of a dispute with one other contracter. we had three nights at the house this week and the plumbing leaks in 3 places,and the drains overflowed with bath and shower water. after spending 18000 euros on windows we have to 'rub down' and prepare for a finish.hilarious [not]. yet every contractor wants 30% up front and payment the day the job is [to them] finished.

Any reccos for builders in 30 ? near Uzes ?

[timc17]

Having read all of the above i am amazed by how many artisans have asked for money up front. I can understand asking for a deposit to pay for materials etc but not for labour as in Nick's case. We spent approx 90000 euros with local tradesmen renovationg our house but not one asked for any payment in advance. We've obviously been very lucky.

[Will]

In a slight defence of French workmen, it has to be said that the English have built up a bit of a reputation as awkward clients and bad payers - either being very late with their (sometimes rubbery) cheques, or insisting on the lowest possible prices then getting upset when corners are cut, and myriad other things. So it is not surprising that deposits are frequently asked for.

On the other hand there is no excuse for poor standards of workmanship or unreliability.

I have read on other forums of so-called artisans in Nick's, Catalpa's and Llywencelyn's region who not only demand deposits (more like 50% than 30%) to cover labour, but also blank cheques with which to pay for materials, and they still don't turn up. And people actually fall for this. Probably another example of leaving brains behind when they go to their French holiday homes.

[Deimos]

[quote user="Nick"]

and is has been 'showers' forever recently, BUT, there are days when he could have done some work.

[/quote]

You should get spells of decent weather spring or summer (I don't know the area). Saying there are days when he could have worked is not realistic. How would he earn a living on the days when the weather was not good enough for him to work. Or would be just keep not turning-up to another indoor job when the weather was good (and annoy another client). Sounds like a significant amount of work and doing a day here and day there should the weather look OK that morning is probably not practical.

Ian

[Catalpa]

[quote user="Will "]I have read on other forums of so-called artisans in Nick's, Catalpa's and Llywencelyn's region who not only demand deposits (more like 50% than 30%) to cover labour, but also blank cheques with which to pay for materials, and they still don't turn up. [/quote]

Isn't the blank cheque business probably to be related to the tax regime the artisan has opted for? Microbic only allows so much for materials, doesn't it? Which is fine for small businesses that have low materials expenses. Not good for builders, I would have thought, where purchase of large quantities of materials can't be allowed for above a certain amount. But even if this is the reason, providing unknown people with blank cheques is simply daft. I wouldn't even give my OH a blank cheque on my account... [6][:D]

[Llwyncelyn]

I have never given and will never give a blank cheque to anyone.  It is plain simple common sense supported by too many years in the law.  The tricks that I have seen..................

When we came here we paid 30% deposit as I have said due in part to the antics of an English guy hereabouts.  Now no deposit just sign the devis and hope that someone turns up.................one day...........but of course they never do and when you do not want them they turn up.............like this morning for one break in foul weather which seems to be going on for ever.

[Jeanneclaire]

I'm surprised that people are being asked to pay up front. None of the artisans that we have used have ever asked to be paid before starting. They do the work and then I pay.