Current Certificat d'Urbanisme Extention Refused

[Ysatis]

Has anyone applied for an extention to their current Certificat d'Urbanisme refused, providing the proper prceedure was followed, for example, applying for a 'prolongation' 10 to 8 weeks before the expiry date.

I'd be interested for what reasons it was refused, we are almost 3 weeks into applying for an extention to our CU and have not heard anything yet, and if it was refused we are at our deadline to apply for Planning Permission (again 8 weeks before the CU we have expires).

Regards,

[BJSLIV]

Extension of the CU , which is given once, is automatic unless there has been any change to the zoning of the land in the meantime.

You must apply a minimum of two months before the CU is due to expire, and as always with the Bureaucracy it must either be hand delivered or sent by Recorded Delivery!

[Ysatis]

   A month to the day, 13th July, of applying for an extention of our CU we received via e-mail (blank) with an attaching letter quite breifly saying that our application for an extention to our CU has been not granted by the 'l'equipement'. I have a big concern, the attaching letter was addressed to a person of the same surname (spelt wrong by one letter, but we have found this a common mistake with us in France), and a different address to ours.Urging us to submit the plans for planning permission to our Maire, but refering to a renovation not a new build which is what we want to do. We have two schools of thought,

a) It's the correct information to the person on the letter and sent to the wrong e-mail address or,

b) It's the correct information to the right people (us), but headed wrong,

   We are of the the 'b' school of thought, too much of a coincidence that someone who lives 700 miles from us (in England as we are), with the same surname(different first name) as us, applying for the same thing with the same notaire as us, so we are assuming the bad news is for us.

   I spent most of Friday trying to phone the Notaire to no avail, then realised it was Bastille Day, (I'm sure I can be forgiven for forgetting with receiving my recent news), to try and confirm if the letter was meant for us.

   Let's assume it is, we now have exactly 7 weeks until our current CU expires, so we are now drawing plans and getting a dossier together for the Permis de Construire. Thankfully my husband is a self-employed carpenter/ builder by day (publican by night) and can spend a few days drawing them and we hope to get on a ferry Sunday night, whiz down on Monday and submit them on the Tuesday, hoping that the Maire or staff can see us. Assuming that goes to plan, that will be 5 weeks and 5 days before the CU runs out. More concerns as we already know they 'have' to be in 8 weeks before CU runs out.

   How rigid is the 'have to be submitted 8 weeks prior', when we arrive at the Mairie, surely they will accept our dossier and not turn us away with an apology for us submitting them too late or will they be processed just the same but annoyed with us for cutting it fine.

   Worried,   

[Pads]

Liz try not to worry to much, since dealing with our notaire we have had 3 emails only one of which was for us, the other 2 where, one about someones divorce and another about some one who is buying a house 20kms from us. both where of coarse written in french(which you know im not to good at) I spent hours with my diconary and bable trying to work out what they were saying, as you can imagine my fright at the thought we had to get divorced to bye out house............[blink] and then at the sums of money he was talking about for rockafellas house down the road . I sent both of these back to him and reciceved no word of apology, but i do worry about how many people may think they are buying our house.

I think you will find cuttingitfine is a french word for normal...............[;-)]

wish you luck keep in touch with what happens, it will all work out well

regards  

[Ysatis]

Thanks for you reasurance pads, I don't think I would worry so much but the similaries are so close. I can't do anymore now to ease my worries until Monday when I shall phone the Notaire to get some clear confirmation on the e-mail. I'll let you know how we get on.

Regards,

[Ysatis]

Just to update our situation briefly.

   I telephoned our Notaire and asked for clarification of the C d'U extention and he replied the next day confirming that our CU was not going to be extended. This meant we had to down tools and donate the week to drawing plans and gathering together several 'dossiers', we did six to be on the safe side, but needed five. Made an appointment with the Maire for the Wednesday (26th July) and booked the ferry (23rd). At the Mairie's, we filled in the relevant forms and had them checked by the secretary, who was extremely helpful. Two days later we had the 'receipt' hand delivered to our caravan on our plot of land, it made me wonder where in England would that happen. It all went painlessly well. Now we have a three month wait according to the secretary and the date on the 'receipt', to see if it is approved. 

That's it really. I was concerned that submitting the plans five and a half weeks before my current CU expired would be too late, but as they didn't get screwed up and chucked in the bin, that, in this case, wasn't a problem. I guess my own situation has answered my original question, that yes, a CU can be refused an extention.

Regards, 

[BJSLIV]

Did you manage to find out why the zoning had been changed?  thereby changing the planning rules for your site.

[Ysatis]

No, we didn't. I think our minds were on just submitting the plans without hic-cups and at the time I think that was enough for us to tackle. Also, not sure if my french is to the standard of understanding planning rules and information. If we return to France for our usual October holiday, I might make a point of going to the Mairie and finding out. Hopefully my french may have improved by then, having a stab at A-Level in September!! And if the nerves will hold out.

Regards,

[Evie]

Hi

Just seen your email and thought I would let you know our experience.

We had a similar problem last year in the Vendee when trying to extend our CU. We were told by the Mairie that the 'law' had changed and said they could not grant another year. We could however re-apply for the CU, which we did, sending exactly the same documents as the first time and were then given another year!!

We have now just applied for full planning permission and although there have been some major issues identified, everyone from the Mairie to the Notaire have been extremely helpful in trying to sort them out.

Should know the decision in a couple of months so fingers crossed.

 

Evie

[Ysatis]

How strange?  Not to give you an extention on your then current CU and then grant you a new one!  Had you let the 'current' one expire and had to re-apply? Did they give you a reason why the original one was refused an extention.

Are you building a house from scratch or renovating? What major issues were identified? Did you draw the plans yourself?

We did all our plans and put the dossiers together ourselves and we hope that they are of a suitable standard for French planning departments. If there is a 'problem' with them, how soon do they notify you, in order to alter them. As I think I said in my earlier posting, we submitted ours at the Mairie's on 26th July, would something be noticed by now.

The date on our receipt is the 26th October '06, is this the latest will should have an answer.Or we will we hear before.

I apologise for being so nosey in the first half of this post, I'm just curious and any information will be useful from someone who is going through the same/similar process as us, at the same time, all be it a different department. I hope all goes well with your planning.

[Evie]

We applied in good time for the extention, a good three months before expiry date but I seem to recall the letter asking us to re-apply mentioned 'zoning' as reason for refusal.  Our planning application is on a barn and are employing a local architect so he has taken care of the plans etc. The main problem encountered in our case has been with the right of way to the property. We have owned a cottage on same piece of land as the barn since 1999 and it appears have never had 'official' right of way to it. This should have been dealt with at the time of purchase (another story!). We heard fairly quickly , about two weeks, through our architect that the dossier was incomplete. (Letter followed after from DDE). Sorting out what's to be done about it is taking a little longer though. Before this occured we were told that we would hear decision within 3 months.

I am lead to believe that as the planning application passes through each of the departments for approval they can ask for further information. If this is not the case perhaps other forum members will respond.

Good luck with your application.

Evie

[Deimos]

In my ignorance, what exactly is a C de U. I know I've got one as it was given to me when I purchased the property. Property was already renovated (ages ago actually). Is it something that needs continual renewal or something just necessary when applying for planning permissions, etc. Mine (probably now expired ages ago as it has dates of 2000 and 2003 on it) seems to only have one of the tax sections completed.

Ian

[BJSLIV]

The Certificat gives details as to whether or not a development would be allowed on a site. Once the development takes place there is no need to renew , unless you want to enquire about a possible change of use, in which case you start again.

Once you have a CdU it can be renewed once, and once only, provided that you apply before it expires. If it has expired then you start with a new application.

However if there has been a change of zoning  since the original application, then the powers that be can refuse to renew a CdU, and would obviously refuse any new application. For example they might have reclassified a site as being in a zone at risk of  flooding after a recent incident.

What strikes me as strange is that though they wouldn't renew a CdU you can go ahead with a full Permis application, as long as you get it in before the CdU expires. It will be interesting to see if the two cases cited above are given a particular "going over" in view of their recent reclassifications. I suppose its a question of having to draw a line somewhere, but its still a bit illogical to condone further development contrary to current plans.

 

 

 

[Ysatis]

That may be it, 'drawing a line' at some point. If re-zoning is in process in certain area's,  perhaps there has to be a cut-off point, where 'they' might say, 'enough is enough'. Re-zoning would be impossible to instigate over night, it has to be over several years, I would have thought, to give those who have on-going applications a chance of realising them. Otherwise, it would seem quite unfair to be 'allowed' or 'led' to purchase land or property with a C d' U that's valid for 12 months and then it be totally worthless after 12 months, if you wanted to extend it or put in for planning permission before it expired. I would be extremely angry if I bought our land with a C d' U and then be informed that planning permission could/would be refused. There is no point granting a C d' U in the first place if you are not going to have the time to acheive anything with it. Surely re-zoning would take into account this. Fair enough if you took your chances a bought land without a C d' U and then applied and got refused because of re-zoning.

 

  

[Ysatis]

Another update.

Our dreams of having a house in France are all but shattered. We had a letter from the Maire yesturday informing us this " decision de sursis à statuer ". This is the answer to our Permis de Construire application. I believe this means that 'they' could not reach a decision and have left it as a " stay of preceedings ". I phoned the Mairie and spoke to the secretary and asked her if we could build a house, as the document niether said yes or no, and she replied 'non', and 'when you're next in France, call in and we will explain'. 

What now! 12 months ago we bought a plot of land with a Certificat d' Urbanisme and now we have a plot of land with niether a CU or a Permis de Construire.What will the land be good for now? I have a feeling it will be devalued by 75%.

Has anyone been in this situation as we have no idea as what to do, apart from contacting the relevant authorities.

Regards,

[BJSLIV]

Sorry to hear your news.

You will see from this link, that the decision on your application has been deferred  (Maximum two years) for some reason or another. Interestingly one of the main reasons can be if  the local zoning is being reviewed. So I guess it comes back to that big question "Why is the zoning being changed?".

http://www1.calvados.equipement.gouv.fr/winads/aid_deci.htm

 

[Pads]

Thats unbeliveable!! Poor you , you must be gutted. Can you not go back to the seller? or notaire who should of checked it for you, use a different notaire and check it out. sorry dont know anough about the laws out there but hopfully some one on here will. PM me if you wanna meet for a coffee and shoulder........... 

[Ysatis]

Thanks BJSLIV and pads (pads, I've sent you a PM) for your replies. I can't get that link to work, might be my PC or me that's the problem.

Just under 4 weeks ago the DDE asked for a couple more cross-sections of our house, which we did and 3 days after they received them they sent the Maire that reply. I'm totally bemussed by it all.I had a sleepless night last night, seeing me as one of the horror stories on No Going Back type programs. It was horrible.

Regards (sorry for short reply, got to go to work...yuk!)

 

[Ysatis]

Well, it seems to be going from bad to worse.

After lots of phone calls and letter writing, it seems that we cannot and never will be able to build our dream house.Mainly due to the re-zoning. All we are most likely be allowed to do, when the final decision had been made on the re-zoning ( July 2007 ) is convert our small barn with a 'chance' of making it larger. It's only about 5m x 6m max.

When we were in discussions with the estate agent about possibly buying the land, he 100% assured us that a new build house could be built, but we made a clause suspensive we'd only continue with the purchase if a C d' U was approuved, this wasn't just mentioned the once, but several times, he even took us back to his office and showed us a catologue of new build houses, so there could not have been any misunderstanding of our intentions for the land.

I am now beginning to wonder if there was an error with the CU application. It was clear from the start that we wanted to build a house not convert the barn, that was never discussed, it's the last thing that we want to do. If I remember correctly, the first time we saw the CU was when we signed the Acte de Vente and as best we could see, it was as we thought. The Notaire even said to us "now you can build your house"...yes, but not attached to the side of the barn.We were in contact with our estate agent regularly, waiting for the sale to complete and asked if the CU had been approuved, no mention of  "ah, yes, but, it can only be for...". We would never have bought the land if we could not build a house.

I have been in touch with the Notaire who handled our sale but I have also consulted two other Notaires for their opinions on the matter. I said to one of them, only this morning, if you buy a terrain à bâtir, surely you can build, he agreed and then asked me to forward on the A de V and C d'U for him to look over. I'm also worried that we haven't bought a terrain à bâtir after all.

I feel the estate agent misinformed us, and we trusted him that everything was ticking along as we wanted.I'm not sure where or whom the blame lies, problably us for note double checking everything and double checking again. And if someone has made an error or deceived us, how do you prove who, nothing's written down, it's talk.I myself also feel stupid for not really realising that this could have happened. We did some homework but I guess not enough. But you can't know it all from the start.

That's how it basically is at the moment. We are now waiting to hear from a Notaire whose had our documents for a couple of days and I only sent off the CU and A de V today to the other one, so hopefully we will have some information the middle of next week. To be honest, I think it looks very bad for us.

Sorry, this thread seems to be turning into a blog, I didn't mean it to turn out like a diary but thought our circumstances might be informative to others.

Our French dream is fast slipping through our fingers.

Regards,

[Poppy]

A similar thing happened to us. We ended up converting the barn which internally is 6x4 but we managed to make two floors have also added extensions amounting to 80 squ metres. We were like you gutted at first but we now love our barn much more than the new house we had previously. It amazing what you can do.

If you still really want a new house and no CU is possible then you could consider getting plans passed for conversion and enlargement of barn and sell it on with plans. Then look at buying another plot of land with CU and secure it by putting in for a permis de c and starting just a small bit of work.

Hope this helps PM me if you want any further info only too happy to help if we can

 

[Ysatis]

   Since receiving the above mentioned letter, I have written, faxed, e-mailed and made numerous phone calls to our Notaire who dealt with the sale, and two other Notaires, and the DDE in Civray, and our Maire, and two solicitors in England. Only one of the notaires, not ours, has responded to our request for some help.He has looked over our Deeds and CU, which is for a house, not convertion of the barn.

   He is going to write a letter to our Maire asking if we can build a house, which, of course he still might refuse. Whilst I am grateful for his assistance, I was hoping someone would be able to do something with a bit more 'umph' to acheive a postive result. So he writes the letter and the Maire still doesn't grant permission...then what.We know the reason they cannot give us a definate decision is because of the re-zoning that won't be concluded until July 2007,( which we knew nothing about until we tried extending the CU back in June ) but it seems so injuste to be put in limbo like this.This notaire also informed me that a CU is just a document of information, not an agreement, so in my opinion, not worth the paper it's written on.

   So we continue to have restless nights until we hear what the response is from the letter to the Maire.

  

[Ysatis]

This morning I received a letter from our Notaire who dealt with the sale with this reply, summarised.

"With regard to your CU which was obtained at the time of sale acted as an information memorandum which does not open any right to build. The commume of Savigné is currently being re-zoned and you will be given an answer to your P de C request when the zoning has been finalised. If you had obtained a P de C before the PLU modification, you could have built your house even if the zone was to become non-constructable."

So we have to wait until July 2007 when the zoning had been finalised, with the information I have, the decission to our request will most likely be 'No'. I haven't had a reply as yet from the Notaire who was going to contact our Maire.

I have the most beautiful photo of our plot of land with the sun shining and blue skies, on the wall, and I can hardly bring myself to look at it. I'm even considering taking it down. I can't believe this has happened.

Regards,

[Blanche Neige]

Liz

you have my sympathy too, what a saga! I do hope it will all work out for you in the end.

New question and similar subject: does anyone know how you can go about getting permission to convert a barn before you buy?[8-)] I know that clauses are possible but if anyone has experience of doing this then please would you be kind enough  to PM me.

[Blanche Neige]

 

Poppy

thanks for your reply, have sent you a PM.[:)]

[Ysatis]

   I have some wonderful news...two days before Christmas we received a big brown envelope from our Maire informing us that the P de C has been granted. We are delighted. So it's all systems go now. I still can't quite believe it. I would like to thank everyone for their replies and support.

   Sorry for the delay in updating, but I first wanted to tell friends (who live quite close to our land, and used to be our neighbours here in England), face to face, who came to dinner last night during their Christmas break to England,  and I would have not wanted them to have learnt of our news through the forum as they are regular readers.

Once again, thanks to everyone.