12 month stay without residency.

[tracy39]

We were considering a move to France for 12 months (not for working), with the intent of moving back to the UK after that. I know that you can only spend 6 months in any tax year (without residency of some kind), so does anyone know if we can technically/legally spend 6 months in one tax year(timed correctly)followed by the next 6 (but in the next tax year)?

As we have sold our house and are renting we have interest paid monthly and as we would be giving up our jobs for the 12 months, would only have this income and obviously our savings to live off (we will be renting a house), so don't really want to get into French tax declarations for such a short while.

Has anyone else done this (for 12 months or more)- either to come back to the UK or stayed in France?

We also have two children who would need schooling and my other concern was that without residency we may not be able to school them without paying (just a cost i need to be aware of!).

I would be grateful for any help, as at present this does not seem a viable option and the trouble with spending only 6 months in France, seems too shorter time to both experience it fully, give up jobs e.t.c.

Thanks for any help.......

[andyh4]

The 183 day rule applies without any reference to tax years.   Spend 183days in France and you should register for tax.

 

Without knowing your situation I have to say you seem to be  taking a very a very cavalier attitude with your childrens' education.  Uprooting them for a year, placing them (I assume) in a school that teaches them in a foreign language, and a different corriculum.

I suppose it has not occurred that they will be learning very different things:

History - Agincourt - a minor hiccough in a war of independence.  Napolean - a great man who introduced metrication and tried to unify Europe - 200years ahead of his time..

Geography - Forget oulining the industrial development of the Sheff valley with respect to its geographical features and concentrate on the industrial developemnt of PACA wrt to its geographical environment.  The former Empire - Vietnam, Cambodia, French Guyana. 

English - indicate the second person subjuctuive II of to have.

 

 

 

[tracy39]

Thanks for taking the time to reply!!!

[bigears]

hi

you can probably in practice get away with it.  If you want to abide by the letter of the 183 day rule go to the uk/spain/germany half way through the 12 month period.  If you are not working don't worry about it just keep a low profile. 

[allanb]

I can't offer much practical advice, but one thing you should be aware of is that the famous "183-day" rule is not the only thing that determines whether you are resident in France.  There are four or five criteria, and you are legally or fiscally resident if you meet any one of them.  What you are suggesting seems a bit unusual and you may need more advice than you can find here.

Apart from laws and taxes, I must say I agree with other comments about the effect on your children's education.  Unless they already speak French, how much are they going to learn in one year in a French school?  There's a huge difference between learning French, and learning other subjects taught in French.

Anyway, it's your business - good luck.

[andyh4]

[quote user="tracy39"]Thanks for taking the time to reply!!![/quote]

 

I assume the exclamation marks mean you don't like the reply, well sorry it was made most sincerely, and the lack of castigation by others would suggest they tacitly agree with me.

There is a saying about not shooting the messenger.

 

You can try keeping your head down as suggested - and you may well get away with it; but having children in school and possibly having to take  them to a doctor may mean that your heads appear above the parapet - and then it will be far more stressful than just doing the right thing in the first place.

[jc]

And don't forget to insure your car properly and transfer the registration.

[tracy39]

Thankyou for all your responses.

My position is not as 'set in stone' as it seems. I would very much like to make the move a permanent one, but i am following the rule of 'try before you buy', that so many brits abroad seem to recommend. Hence preparing for any shortfall and "having" to return to the UK, (i suppose more of a get out clause - especially for my children!). I felt 12 months (as opposed to 6) gave everyone long enough, to truly decide if  it was for them - as i know it can take a good while (especially for children) to actually know what they want. My cousin already lives in Lyon (and has for many years) with his French girlfriend, but even he could not definately say i could  have 12 months (tax wise), this would have allowed for a period of settlement long enough to deal with more complex French matters (like tax), allowed us to 'get to know an area', which eveyone recommends, (and of course should the worst happen.....).

Your comments (based on my initial question) andy, were very valid, was a little shocked though, at someone choosing to make such 'brisk' comments (there are better ways to put things , as someone else has done), on my first posting and when you consider that  A- you do not know the ages of my children, for relavance and B - the question of schooling was an after thought to the MAIN question!!!

Anyway, thankyou for all your response, especially those who did not choose to lecture me on my first posting. WILL NOT be posting again!!

[Gluestick]

If I may throw a couple of  things into the melting pot

1.    Why don't you consider buying another UK house and renting it out for the period you are abroad?

There could be certain tax advantages here if you leave the UK for one year and one day.

Additionally, if you are planning to buy another UK house, surely you don't want to come back and find you have great difficulty buying  if the market roars away meanwhile?

Further, since rents in the UK tend to be far higher than in France, the rentstream should pay for your French let.

If you are thinking of living on the income from the proceeds of the sale plus savings, remember that you ae losing immense capital value from inflation adn the insane UK house price spiral!

2.    Like many PTs (Permanent Travellers) if you ensure: (i)  That you stay out of the UK for One Year and One Day and (ii)  Whilst staying in France, before the first 183 days are over, go to Spain (e.g.) for one week's hols: and then return.

Most European Tax Avoiders (e.g. Philip Green the boss of Aradia Group, BHS etc) manages to be in the UK, accompanying people like Kate Moss to bashs, runs his huge UK based business yet is tax resident in Monte Carlo! He is not alone................... Good for him: good enough for you!

3.    Read John Burton-Race's book, French Leave. He did precisely this, for the book and a TV programme. His kids of varying ages between 6 and 16 seemed to thrive on one year's French schooling.

Probably the choice of area and schools will be the critical factors.

I'm a great believer in research: ask John!

http://www.johnburtonrace.com/newangel.htm

 

 

[tracy39]

Thankyou Gluestick. Despite saying i would not post again, i could not leave such a wonderful and informative reply un-answered.

Thankyou very much for points mentioned, i did watch French leave (and enjoyed it very much). I am going to look into some of the options you mentioned, secretly i was hoping to be able to stay once in France, but being a bit of a pessimist, i wanted to stay on the side of caution, and keep French Tax returns e.t.c. to a minimum level, should i have to return to the UK. I also hoped to be able to keep my income from interest on my equity, paid at gross at present, for as long as possible - in order to have some income whilst in France - and not have to use as much from my actual savings. This would have then enabled me to possibly still afford to buy a cheap property in France at the end of 12 months, with a little left to live on, thus THEN becoming a French resident - with all that it entails. The longer i can derive some Uk income the greater the chance of staying on in France.(Bit long winded but i hope that makes sense!!)

Thanks very much again, i will check out some of the options you mentioned.

[Ron Avery]

"you can probably in practice get away with it."

Get away with what, bigears, not paying tax, social charges, health care costs etc?  It strikes me that there are too many people in France "getting away with it".  The OP can come to France quite legally and have an extended holiday if she intends to return to the UK, and continues to pay UK tax NI etc and can get an insurance on her car that covers that period of time, however, if the intention is to live in France and that is what happens then she is resident from day 2 and has to deal with all that entails.

[andyh4]

Tracy

I am glad you have decided not to leave.

Your explanatory post paints a very different picture to your original - which frankly came across as "me and hubby have decided to take a gap year we don't want to pay any taxes and want to stuff the kids into school, any advice". 

On that basis perhaps a rather terse reply - especially when you consider that there are many many postings from people who have seen 2 episodes of a house in the sun and want the whole family to emigrate on the basis of that.

 

Some of these posts selected from the education section go some way to explaining the difficulties

 

 

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/737247/ShowPost.aspx

 

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/841092/ShowPost.aspx

 

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/756951/ShowPost.aspx

 

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/699139/ShowPost.aspx

 

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/497812/ShowPost.aspx

 

There are plenty of other here and on other forums with similar or even downright sad tales - some with kids essentially abandoned by both parents and schools. 

[woolybanana (ex tag)]

Tracy, basically if you are careful you can get away with it of course. Financially if you live off a lump sum and not work or income you may find it easier, but it must be provable.

And it won't hurt the kids at all. Children have been shunted round the world since the beginning of time and mostly seem to come out ok. Forget all this nonsense about the sacredness of education and their friends and social groups. Change is good for them.

In fact it will certainly do them good though they might have to drop back a year in UK, which they would probably do in France anyway. Forget the huffing and puffing and just do it if you want.

(I say this having taught round the world for 35 years)

[tracy39]

Thanks for both above posts. Andyh, i see where you are coming from and i shall check out your links - thanks. When posting at first, i tried to simplify, yet cover basic facts - without going on for ever.

Thankyou woolybanana, it is nice to see another view on the education point. What i did not quite realise, is that we may actually have to make the choice about our future (whether i will be planning on staying permanently in France e.t.c.) before i actually leave the UK. I believe it can be quite difficult to change your form of permit once in France, so if after say 6 months (better stick to stating that length of time for ease !!!) i wanted to stay on (maybe buy)and apply for residency, it could prove difficult (might be my info. has changed).

Thanks once more for taking the time to reply.

[Gluestick]

[quote]

In fact it will certainly do them good though they might have to drop back a year in UK, which they would probably do in France anyway. Forget the huffing and puffing and just do it if you want.

(I say this having taught round the world for 35 years)

[/quote]

However since France is light years ahead in education, they will in all probability be either at the same level as UK or even at a more advance level.

One day the UK will have école Maternelle...............

One day the UK will educate to proper standards!

Then it will be Bye Bye [IMG]http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i278/Michaeleff/2036.gif[/IMG] sub-standards of UK education, hello 21st Cent.

BTW curved-shaped, yellow meld of uline fruit, not having a pop at you. As an ex-External Moderator, Examiner and Lecturer at MBA level, County Council Co-opted Secondary School Guv and etc, just driven to tears [IMG]http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i278/Michaeleff/thcrying2.gif[/IMG] by all the nonsense from the fools at the now renamed (again for about the fifth time so we won't know who to blame!), Department for Children, Schools and Families.

Interesting that major firms in the City of London are now heavily recruiting French youngsters as they are  "more mature and far better educated..............."

 

[Patf]

We became friendly with a couple with 2 young children who came over to try it here for a year. They rented a house near us, and the oldest child went to the maternelle. He worked for an english newspaper and kept this employment while here. Don't know how they managed healthwise or taxwise but I suppose start with a european health card. They decided to return to uk after a year - they had kept their house there. Pat.

[allanb]

Concerning children's education: at risk of stating the obvious, it depends on the child.

Children vary enormously in their ability to learn a foreign language, just as they vary in their musical ability, their athletic ability, and their ability to understand mechanical things.  If a child can absorb a new language easily, he may enjoy a year in a foreign school and benefit greatly from a temporary change of culture.  If not, he may spend a miserable year not knowing what is going on around him, and find that he has wasted a year if he returns to the UK.

Only you know your own children.  Generalisations are useless. 

[Gluestick]

Unfortunately, allanb, the quantifiable facts don't support your view.

I cannot remember the stats precisely (I was a Secondary School Governor at the time and anxious to counter certain myths and excuses for failure, as we- governing body - were in process of rescuing a bad school and turning it around), but from final research in the late 80s/early 90s, showed that circa 90% of all kids have an average learning curve and academic ability. This was identical over all races and ethnicities. Obviously, as in most things, polyglots are unusual and unique; most others, however, have an almost indentical ability to learn another language; or indeed anything else!

Educational learning is nothing other than structured discipline. The rest is environmental conditioning.

As St. Ignatious Loyola (The founder of the Jesuits) stated, "Give me a child 'till the age of five and I have them for life!"

Kids born and brought up by, multi-lingual parents generally tend to be multi-lingual also: this was particularly reinforced to me by a business colleague in the late 70s, when he and his family were living in London, after Paris and Athens. He was American and a Harvard graduate: his wife was a Bas Bleu and a Professor at Zurich University and whilst originally living in Switzerland, was Greek!

Little Marie, who was about 7 would answer the 'phone in English, French or Greek as the mood took her!

If speaking another language becomes essential to eating, it's normally amazing how fast people learn!

 

[cooperlola]

Gluey, your last sentence resonates with me.  When I was 10, I spent 6 weeks with a French family.  I spoke no French at all (not taught in primary schools then) apart from the odd bits I'd picked up on holidays with my family the previous 5 summers.  After a couple of weeks, I suddenly found I understood huge amounts of what was being said, and by the time I went home it was amazing how much I'd picked up and I could chat quite confidently.  When I did begin learning French at school, the teacher was astonished at how much I knew.  Immersion and necessity worked in my case!

[Gluestick]

I took my son away on a sort of Business-Social thingy, when he was about 9.

He and another lad of similar age were thrown together with two French kids, over on an exchange.

The French kids spoke no English: and the English kids spoke no French!

As would be expected being Summer, it poured! Luckily, my friends weekend retreat had loads of games for just such eventualities!

Within minutes, minutes, the four of 'em were playing and arguing! And communicating! And learning expressions in each other's languages!

I watched, very surreptitiously and with total amazement and great interest.

 

[woolybanana (ex tag)]

We are the odd ones out in many ways. Look at Africa, most of its people speak two or three languages and more because they have a different language down the road. The Lebanese, the Swiss, and part of a country which is frontalier, and in France that involves three major languages, Spain with Catalan and Spanish. If you support the kids but dont wrap them in cotton wool, make the experience a positive one, then they will really benefit. It is the Fat Arsed Charlies who never move from their 'patelin', their district, their local town who look inward, largely because of parental example who can't adapt. This should be a fantastic opportunity for your kids. Get to France and keep going, there is a whole world out there. Problem is they may not wanna go back ever. Good on them.

At 4 I was taken to South Africa = wow. At 15 we came back because she wanted her mother. Awwwww. Couldn't wait to get away and did. Been on the move ever since. Great. But don't some of those local places in UK I left behind seem boring. What shocks me is that some of thoise peopple have never moved.

Go go go.

[tracy39]

Hi - thankyou (once more) for your VERY useful and welcome info. and stories, it makes me feel that there is hope for settling - particularly with regards to education.

Ironically - and on a completely different level -it may not ultimately be education that causes a problem for my elder son. He had a terrible fear of dogs, which (having grown up with dogs myself ) i  have managed to greatly diminish, by constantly encouraging him to trust dogs we know to be extremely 'nice'. Whilst very keen to try a new way of life and learning, he constantly keeps asking me about Frances' dreadful dog bite statistics (knew i should not have let him loose on google!). I believe they are in the hundreds of thousands (compared to the UK which is around 3000) per year - i am sure this cannot be right - not with France being so particular about the banning, breeding e.t.c. of certain breeds (maybe i have just got duff info.), seems a huge amount!!! Anyway, i have assured him that i will post something here (on the correct forum) to (hopefully), put his mind at rest (or not, as the case may be!).

Loved reading your helpful comments.

[cooperlola]

Tag, I used to live in Malta.  Lessons there are all in English and Maltese is taught as a language from the moment kids go to school.  At around 8, they start to learn Italian and by  the time they get to secondary school, many study another "foreign" language on top.  The average Maltese therefore speaks 4 languages as a matter of course - and I'm not just talking the bright few here.

I wonder if it's the assumptions that "everbody speaks English"; "It's the international business language" and such things that makes Brits lazy language learners.  A pity, whatever the reason.

Bon Courage, Tracy!  My nieces and nephews who moved here (at varying ages) 8 years ago, speak both languages fluently and did so after just a few months.  What a skill for their futures that is.

[Gluestick]

Absolutely and bang on JE!

About five years ago i was asked to help present a very demanding seminar and conference in Reykjavik.

Not only did the wonderful young ladies working for the IMG group speak fluent literate English, they obviously spoke Icelandic too: and Swedish and some of them Finish, Norwegian etc. And one was Dutch, so she spoke Icelandic, Dutch and Swedish: as well as perfect English!

And they were drop dead gorgeous too!

Cor!

Agree totally Yellow bending meld of fruit and Uline Creature!

I'll bet you are a far more interesting person to enjoy a beer with too! [B]

 

[cooperlola]

Wooly bananas and beer - now there's a diet for you!