house and step-children

[kittentoo]

Please could some one help me.  My husband and I are thinking of buying a home in France.  He has 6 grown children from previous relationships and 8 grandchildren.  He has had no contact with them for years and they do not get long at all.  He wants me to inherit the house.  If we purchased it just in my name, would the children have any claim?  I am I correct in assuming that if we bought it together, they would automatically inherit?  I know that they would fight every step of the way should anything happened to their father to have a share in the house. Any advice?

[marina]

French inheritance law is very strict about reserved heirs, such as children and there is no way that you can stop them inheriting if you are French resident. Even buying a house in only one partner's name can get picked up by the authorities as a way of trying to get round the law. You might get away with it, but it might get pîcked up. If you are not French resident (i.e. it is a holiday home) there are possible solutions but these need advice from a specialist lawyer. Unfortunately the only cast iron advice is that if you cannot accept French laws, don't move to France. It may sound unhelpful, but it is the French laws that are unhelpful, not me.

[Cat]

Hello you two, perhaps one of our more knowledgeable long-standing members might be able to advise you further, but in this situation I would strongly suggest that you consult a legal specialist.

[Renaud]

If you look through the legal issues in France section - Loiseau has posted about a ‘donation entre epoux’ which as she says ‘doesn't prevent your children inheriting their rightful share, but it does postpone the event - allowing the surviving spouse to go on living in the house and using the furniture etc. The children can't force the survivor to sell just because they want their inheritance.  So it effectively postpones the moment that they get their whack.   BUT it doesn't prevent the children having their share eventually. If the surviving spouse were to sell the property, the child/ren would have to have, then and there, the cut to which they are entitled by virtue of the death of the first spouse.’

For my wife and myself, although already happily married in the UK, we asked the Notaire to remarry us under the Universal community regime just before the Acte de Vente, which we understand will mean that after the first one of us dies the survivor inherits the property and contents for their lifetime. After that the children will inherit and also have to pay any death duties on the two of us. The advantage of this avoids the situation whereby the survivor inherits the property in conjunction with the children.

 

Quillan has posted a helpful FAQ from http://www.notaires.fr/notaires/notaires.nsf/V_TC_PUB/INHERITANCE under legal issues in France on this.

[Loiseau]

[WHOOPS!  I TOOK A PHONE CALL BEFORE PRESSING "POST" ON THIS, AND CAT AND RENAUD HAVE COME UP WITH SIMILAR SUGGESTIONS IN THE MEANTIME.  SORRY.]

As Marina says, it would be hard to get round French inheritance laws. I don't know if buying "en tontine" would be the answer, or making - is it an SCI ? (these have been much discussed elsewhere on the forum). 

One thing that might be helpful though, if you *do* buy, is to make a "donation entre epoux" (gift between spouses) in front of a notaire. This does not disinherit the children ultimately, but it does mean that the surviving spouse has the use of the house and its furniture for their lifetime. The children will get their father's share of the money on your death (if you are the survivor). I think if the surviving spouse decides to *sell* the property during his/her lifetime then the shares of the deceased's children have to be paid out at that point. 

I have been down the "stepchildren" road (though in our case, relations are very amicable).  My late husband and I had bought a holiday home 35 years ago, and declared a "separation des biens" as the marriage regime I think.  The children's total share of the property came to just under a quarter of the total value.  (Half the property was deemed to be mine; half his half also passed to me; leaving just that last slice for the children.) In my case, the notaire advised me to buy them out if I could. Which I did, and it's now completely mine, and just *my* daughter will inherit. (I'd actually have liked my stepchildren cut in too, but the notaire says No Way, as they'd have to pay 40% tax!)  So if you can keep that sort of money squirrelled away somewhere, that is another option - as long as the children all agree of course.

It will all depend on *how* you buy it, or what you declare as your marriage regime etc.  So you need seriously good professional advice before you even start to look!  

Angela

[Chrissie]

I am in exactly the same situation.  We took legal advice before coming here and the French (our only) property was bought by me and in my name, and the funds were shown transparently to come from my account.  We declared our marriage regime as "separation de biens", so that our wealth is considered to be independently owned by each.  Our wills were drawn up in French by an English lawyer with French expertise and deposited here accordingly.  I have twice checked with our notaire that, should my husband pre-decease me, I would still have sole ownership of my house and he is happy with that.  My husband has also made it clear to his children that the house is mine and they should expect no bequests. 

Of course, should I die first, the situation is more complicated, as my husband would have to pay tax on his inheritance......  It's a gamble, and each situation has to be judged individually.

Hope this has helped a bit.

Chrissie (81)

[Moriarty]

we're in the same situation as kittentoo and chrissie.  My husband has grown up children from his first marriage and, despite the fact that we've been together for nearly thirty years, they would still push me aside to claim what they think is 'rightfully' theirs and challenge any will he makes, probably not even just for the money but to make life difficult for me.  So we are thinking about putting our new house in my name only since there's no reserved heirs on my side and we may go this route.   However, I'm waiting to hear what has been decided on the current IHT debate in France as this may give us a new angle to look at.

Anyway, I'm interested to see more opinions and experiences on this as it's a subject close to my heart. 

[Wendy]

There have been several posts like this. It always surprises me how many people, on their 2nd marriages, do not get along with their grown up 'children' from the first marriage. Why is this?...anyway, in such circumstances buying in France would be frought with problems in my eyes.

[andyh4]

Why is this? Wen

Well I guess there are almost as many reasons as there are second marriages, but here a few:

Children feel/felt abandoned by departing parent

or feel betrayed.

Or have been brainwashed by the remaining parent/grandparent/ family that the departed parent has been led astray by an evil person.....

 

Unfortunately many break-ups do not result in amicable solutions.  Often the departing parent becomes estranged, sometimes of their own will but often as a result of being pushed out or even as a result of guilty feelings.

 

 

 

[Russethouse]

I agree Andy, not only that but many of the children involved are adult now which probably means that parents split up before the days of 'no fault' divorce which in my view  probably only exists in the mind of the legal profession.

[billy10]

My wife and I had a similar situation second marriage children from both joint kids 6all over 18 , when we bought the house we bought it en Tontine , which if I read it right means that while we are still alive we  both own the house , whichever one of us departs this earth first , the remaining one inherits everything totally .  Only on the death of the second partner can the children make their claim which according to French law will be split equally 6 ways no matter how they feel about each other ( fortunately they all get on together )

If one person is left under tontine they can still sell the house and buy a different one should they wish, the only problems as I see it are the tax liabilities etc etc that will come into force after we are both Brown Bread , but I am not really concerned about that we both will be planted in a nice corner of France enjoying our "maison secondaire " in the next world. and the kids can pay the tax bill.

This is my interpretation if I have got it wrong please let me know.

Billy10

[val douest]

Billy - in a previous discussion on this subject (http:/www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/962102/ShowPost.aspx) I think the conclusion was generally reached that under an en tontine agreement the surviving partner becomes sole owner of the property.  This means that under French succession law, when eventually he/she dies, the property can only pass to his or her own children and not to stepchildren.  But it would be worth raising with a French legal expert for absolute clarity....

[billy10]

Thanks Val Douest, I will look into that , although we are of the generation that will " do the right thing" its just as well to know and leave specific instructions for the children for the situation when one of us pass's on.

Regards

 

Billy10

[Wendy]

Yeah I understand andy, which is why I am totally in favour of the 'spend it all now' idea. My kids know they will have to work for what they want in life. No-one is entitled to anything for free in my eyes and if they want the house after I'm gone, then they can pay me for it before I am gone. 'Show me the money!'.

[squoppy]

first posting and as I read through everyones comments I am still confused !!

we are moving into our home in the gers in January and have talked to the notaire today and she advised the clause tontine, as my husband has 2 children by a previous marriage and I had never been married before, and have no children of my own.

To put it bluntly most of the money for the purchase of the house etc has come from my side of the family and much as I like his 2 children I am trying to find if there is a way that in particular family paintings, jewellery etc can be exempted or taken out of the equasion when it comes to wills. I am resigned to the fact that they will get money and that is fine, I'll be out of the problem anyway, but family things mean a lot and I want them to be returned to their rightful place.

has anyone got a suggestion to make this  possible.   I have also heard that if both of his children sign seperate letters renouncing their claim (signed in front of 2 notaires) that this solves the whole problem. Has anyone got any knowledge of that clause ?

confusion reigns, any help gratefully appreciated.

Squoppy

[freddy]

Squoppy

This really shouldn't be a problem - most of the french rules and inflexibility relate to fixed assets in france which for practical purposes here means the house. There is a much greater degree of freedom in relation to other assets - there are some rules but they relate to percentages e.g. 25% of the remainder must be left in a particular way. ( Can't remember the details but google French Inheritance rules and you shoul dfind it quickly enough)

In your case I think it would work like this:

You die first - house goes to husband (tontine) - you can leave the rest of YOUR possesions to broadly who you like. When your husband dies a large chunk must go to his children but the rest can go wherever he pleases.

Your husband dies first - house passes to you (tontine) - a percntage of the HIS possesions must pass to his children. When you die you can leave your stuff largely as you please (inlcuding to his children) including the house because you have not reserved heirs.

Your husband's children might be able to kick up a fuss were he to die first as they could argue that the arrangement disinherited them but they would have to take you to court etc.

The other thing to consider is that there are potentially chunky tax implications here - if the house is passed to the children from their father the tax hit will be MUCH smaller than if it passes from you.

Assuming this is some way away (as far as you can tell) you should also consider that many things may change between now and then anyway - French inheritance law could well change - if you or your husband were to be widowed and decide to sell up and move back to england the assets come under Uk rules for inheritance.

What you need to do is make 2 wills one in UK one in France  - it would be wise to talk to an expert on dual wills as you have to careful e.g. each will must not accidentally revoke the other.

[Wendy]

When we bought this place (hotel plus house - all one property)  four years ago our notaire told us we could not buy en tontine because 1) we were not married and 2) I am not european and had no carte de sejour at the time, and 3) because the property was classed as a business.

I still cannot understand why?.