when to use ce-qui or ce-que?

[Viv]

Help ! When should I use "ce qui" or " ce que"?

I thought I had it sorted eg qui for who and que for that, but now I'm not so sure as it seems interchangeable.

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Pronoms relatifs indéfinis - French Indefinite Relative Pronouns

Just as in English, a relative pronoun links a relative clause to a main clause. Note that regular relative pronouns have a specific antecedent, but indefinite relative pronouns do not.

There are five* French indefinite relative pronouns; each form is used only in a particular structure, as summarized in the following table.

Usage	Pronoun	Meaning
Subject	ce qui	what
Direct object	ce que/qu'	what
Object of de	ce dont	which, what**
Object of a preposition	quoi	which, what**

*The fifth indefinite relative pronoun, which is much less common, is addressed in a separate lesson: Quiconque

** Remember that French verbs often require different prepositions than English verbs, so you really need to be careful with ce dont and quoi - it's not always obvious which one is correct. When there is no preposition, of course, you use ce que.

The pronoun tout can be used with indefinite relative pronouns, and changes the meaning to "everything" or "all."

I.	Ce qui serves as the subject of a relative clause and takes the il form of the verb.
	Ce qui m'intéresse, c'est la langue.	What interests me is language.
	Sais-tu ce qui lui plaît?	Do you know what pleases him?
	C'est ce qui me dérange.	That's what bothers me.
	Tout ce qui brille n'est pas or.	All that glitters is not gold.
II.	Ce que is used as the indefinite direct object in a relative clause.
	Ce que je veux, c'est être trilingue.	What I want is to be trilingual.
	Sais-tu ce que Pierre a fait ?	Do you know what Pierre did?
	C'est ce que je déteste.	That's what I hate.
	Tout ce qu'il écrit est amusant.	Everything he writes is funny.
III.	Ce dont is used as the object of the preposition de.
	Ce dont j'ai besoin, c'est un bon dico.	What I need is a good dictionary.
	Sais-tu ce dont Luc parle ?	Do you know what Pierre is talking about?
	C'est ce dont je me souviens.	That's what I remember.
	J'ai tout ce dont j'ai envie.	I have everything I want.
IV.	Quoi is the object of any preposition except de.
	Sais-tu à quoi il pense ?	Do you know what he's thinking about?
	J'ai étudié, après quoi j'ai lu.	I studied, after which I read.
	Avec quoi écrit-il ?	What is he writing with?
	Ce à quoi je m'attends, c'est une invitation.***	What I'm waiting for is an invitation.
	C'est ce à quoi Chantal rêve.***	That's what Chantal dreams about.
	*** When à quoi is at the beginning of a clause or follows c'est, the word ce is placed in front of it (ce à quoi).

Basically they both mean WHAT. Main difference in use is what follows grammatically. Compare this excerpt from a conversation between 2 Parisian 'pochtrons' -tramps- (one discerning tramp and one common one):

1)  'ce que' =  is for 'what + subjet + verb',

(discerning tramp) 'Ah ! j'aime bien ce que je bois, un p'tit Castelvin cuvée 2005' =    I like what I'm drinking

2)&nb

[Bones]

Soooooo....

It's what I like to drink (ce que)

OR

It's what makes me drunk (ce qui)

Cos, like, 'I' is a subject following 'what' and 'me' (or the 'me' in 'me torche') isn't a subject following 'what'. What, in the second example, is the subject (probably).

I reckon that in english where you might use 'ce qui' you could get away with 'that which':

'It is that which makes me drunk' sounds okay (ish), 'It is that which I like to drink' sounds a bit daft.

'I prefer that which gets me drunk' sounds okay, 'I like that which I'm drinking' sounds a bit daft.

Yeah, I'm definately right. Professor Bones new formula: 'that which' sounds okay = ce qui, 'that which' sounds iffy = ce que. Easy.  

** I've just read some of the above examples; sadly, the new formula has a fatal flaw: it's crap.

[Viv]

Thanks Vraititi.

I have printed it off and will go through it. My problem is I'm not sure of all the grammatical names and terms etc in English so trying to work it out in French

For years I thought a subordinate clause was one of santa's helpers!

[Dick Smith]

"For years I thought a subordinate clause was one of santa's helpers"

Brilliant! Made me cough...

[Christine Animal]

Parce que vous croyez au Père Noel...  

 

[Bones]

- My problem is I'm not sure of all the grammatical names and terms etc in English so trying to work it out in French... -

Indeed. I was taught that a verb is a 'doing' word; that's as far as they went with grammar.

I did however spend many a happy afternoon playing in the sandpit - resulting in a polite, well socialised chap who cannot speak a single word of sense to his new found French chums...

Latin too was deemed a dreadful waste of time, unless of course one would like to go on to a career in medicine or law, or perhaps learn another language.

We were doomed from the outset I tell you! 

 

[Christine Animal]

"It is that which makes you what you are Bones" and I'm sure you're doin' fine !  

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Bones, I would not worry about complicated grammar points and the minefield that it can unravel at this stage if I were you, just carry on developping your vocabulary (do not forget: once 'learnt', use it straight away a few times to register it once and for all, so to speak) and hone in your listening skills, fancy grammar can wait and everything will naturally fall back into place with practice, and practice and more practice !