Paris Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 Greetings - especially to those of you resident in France and hence hearing/speaking French daily. I read in today's Daily Telegraph that the French are now using the Vous form less and less and are now using tu more and more to all and sundry - and not just children, dogs etc.Is this really the case? My French neighbours with whom I chat whenever we visit our second home in the Creuse have always addressed us, individually, as vous - they are now retired but still have their principal home in Paris. They address our adult son as Tu (we have know each other 14 years and are all about the same age.I am curious about this as nowhere on our meanderings through France each year have I noticed this extra familiarity - but perhaps I am not listening intently enough!Julia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardian Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 Our neighbour, who is a lovely 'over-the-top' sort of bloke, has addressed me (and my wife) as "Tu" almost from the off. But he seems to do that with just about anyone who fetches up on his doorstep.His charming wife has taken a year to get to the same point, even after several dinners at each other's places. (No lack of friendliness, by the way, just "Vous"). Happily it's now "Tu" with her too.We'll be having dinner together over the weekend & I'll ask them: bet they won't be able to explain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissie Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 I go regularly to a needlework group and the (French) ladies there have often discussed the "tu" and "vous" issue - they seem to be as confused as we are! They used to know where they stood, "vous"-ing everyone they didn't know well, but things have changed in the last ten years or so. Within the group there was a vast disparity of usage now and it seemed to me that the more posh the person (my description) the more likely they were to stick with vous. One frightfully upper-crust type said that she only used "tu" to her immediate family and wouldn't dream of using it elsewhere, not even to this group, which has been meeting for years. I work on the principle that I "vous" everyone I meet and only switch to "tu" when they do so. It's a bit hard keeping track of who does what, but amongst friends the wonderful "ça va?" avoids tackling things immediately and then hopefully they will ask "comment allez vous?" or "comment vas-tu?" to jog my memory. I do have trouble when trying to ask plumbers etc if all is going well. I want to say "Tout va bien?" but my accent leads it to sound like "tu vas bien?" causing embarassment all round, so I've now started to say "c'est bien?" with lots of all-encompassing arm-waving and that seems to do. I have more trouble with "nous" and "on". It seems weird to me when you ask someone if they had a good weekend to be told "on est allé à Toulouse". Can anyone tell me if there are (simple) rules about this?Chrissie (81) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 I used to always use vous with everybody who I did not know (other than to children). Then everybody started telling me to use tu. One flying instructor explained "in words on one syllable" one day: "I am not a teacher so you do not use vous" - and it was only the 2nd time I had met him. I do find that having used vous with everybody for ages it is difficult to make the switch and at the moment I will often use vous sometimes, tu at other times.If I am unsure (e.g. at La Marie) then I will still use vous.Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bones Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 'Older folk' tend to use Tu because you're younger than them - a bit like you using Tu when speaking to kids; but it's not a rule - just less of a potential faux pas.If you're english (or foreign) then you shouldn't really run into any problems using Tu with all and sundry; the fact that you're attempting to speak french should be good enough.The general rule seems to be that if you don't know the person pretty well you should avoid using 'Salut!' and Tu. My girlfriend's sister in law still uses vous when speaking with her gran - and I think it's right to treat all older people with this level of respect.Workplace - Tu is okay with peers but shouldn't be used with your boss(es) unless they instigate it first. Shops - always Vous (obviously). Chrissie: On and Nous are interchangeable, you usually write using nous and it sounds a tad more 'proper'; but there is no faux pas aspect involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Zoff Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 The "rules" seem rather blurred now except that you should continue to use "vous" with non-acquaintances (officials, shop staff, etc) and people treated with particular respect (e.g. Monsieur Maire, the elderly). I have a good French friend who liberally uses both tu and vous with me now so I tend to do the same. When I asked him about it he said not to worry too much about which was used in our conversations, although he preferred that I slipped in a few "tus" regularly to show friendliness. Another French person - whom I have not met in person but we both contribute to the same car website forum - said that exclusive use of the "vous" form can appear stuffy and as unwillingness to treat the other person as an equal. I have noticed in his PMs to me through that forum that he has used both forms without it seems following any particular rules.So if in doubt, use "vous". But feel free to test the water with "tu" with people you know and if you hear some "tus" come back, you know you are in! Just don't leap in with "tu" from the start.Of course, there may be regional variations.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 In our part of France (Hautes-Pyrenees) we've found that people seem toswitch to using "tu" quite quickly, eg the secretary at the Mairie andout next door neighbour after only a few meetings, but then I've foundthat here it's generally much less formal compared with when I lived inParis (though that was 10+ years ago now). I was certainly taughtthat the greeting "ca va" (sorry can't do accents on this computer!)was quite informal/slangy but everybody uses it here from the Maire tothe Notaire.I always think that "on" is a bit like the english "one" in the sensethat it conveys the meaning of more than one person but using singularforms of the verb, but much much less formal in French, very commomlyused and very useful because usually the singular form of the verb iseasier to remember than the "nous" form!Lou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alane Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 I'm reminded of the story that one of Mitterand's cronies - I think it was Jacques Attali, suggested that after knowing each other for so long they should use the tu form to each other. Mitterand's supposed reply was "Comme vous voulez".Our neighbours use the vous form with us but that may be because we always use it with them - I'd never really thought of doing any differently after learning French at school where it was suggested that tu was for family and animals. I hope they don't think us overly formal - maybe I'll ask next time I see them, let's hope I don't get a Mitterand response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronan Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 I see how it can be confusing :-) My partner would often use Vous with me after longish conversation trying to stay formal (at banks, etc...) :-)I've been away from France for the last 13 years so might not be at the latest trend of linguistic but the general rule is that one should use "vous" until one has been invited to use "Tu". The most "senior" person would be the one asking! ;-)I find the "vous" a useful way to keep the distance with people. Especially artisans, etc as I always feel otherwise it gets a bit "pally"...Even among French people, you get to funny situations with, for example, my mum, using Tu with her sisters but Vous with their husbands while I use Tu with all my aunts/uncles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert the InfoGipsy Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 I've been browsing a number of French (francophone) fora recently and noticed that many of the participants use 'tu', even when responding to obvious first-time posters (i.e. total strangers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 Albert the InfoGipsy wrote the following post at 14/07/2006 11:01:I've been browsing a number of French (francophone) fora recently andnoticed that many of the participants use 'tu', even when responding toobvious first-time posters (i.e. total strangers).This has always been the case Albert, and is an accepted part of frenchnetiquet, sauf! l'Académie française and other such french languagededicated sites. My thoughts on the initial question are, from what I`ve experienced,that it is happening and seems to be coming from the younger generationupwards, viewed I imagine as a rather old seemingly outdated andunecessary part of their french language. I`d like to point out that Idon`t happen to agree with them. Certainly I see a lot more informality between children and adultsthan before, say around 10 years ago, and a teenagers text messagingand forum interaction on some websites, entre eux, barely even lookslike french......One of my elderly neighbours still can`t after 20 years tutoyer herdaughter-in-law, and she was brought up in a household where childrenvouvoyer their parents, I guess old habits die hard.On the other hand, a work colleague and friend in his thirties "tu`s"everyone, and his feeling is like it or lump it! he never seems to getany grief for it from anyone....... maybe he`s blessed........ or maybeit`s cos ezzz a big mec.I think these changes take place naturally in all modern languages overcertain periods, I mean did`nt we all used to "ye yee oldy worldy, thoushalt and thee" in a time not so far away, and in the forties andfifties everybody spoke awwfully nicellly don`t you think?I think it would be a shame to lose the vous form from everyday life,and I think it says a lot about the french and their society, even ifthe politeness, of which I see on a daily basis is not always from theheart, it is there, and that deserves some recognition and helps insome small way I reckon in keeping all us savages ....... civilised.Norman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 My rule of thumb : Unsure? Use vous - can't go wrong or be unintentionally insulting.I have a good french friend who says she has been known to get a few funny looks from her own casual habit of tu toyer ing all the time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnH Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 [quote user="cooperlola"]My rule of thumb : Unsure? Use vous - can't go wrong or be unintentionally insulting.I have a good french friend who says she has been known to get a few funny looks from her own casual habit of tu toyer ing all the time![/quote]This is a good system and one which I employ myself - only using "tu" when it is used to me.I have a French friend who is horrified at many of the examples of what he sees as the erosion of the French language - "le weekend", for example, exasperates him enormously. He addresses his wife as vous!My friend may be more than slightly eccentric but, sometimes, after I've been entertained by one of his 'things aren't what they used to be' rants, I'm reminded that it is possible to offend people, without meaning to, by appearing to be unmannerly. And isn't the French sense of politesse one of the reasons why we enjoy being allowed to share their world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
londoneye Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 I am not trying to subvert the drift of this, but i wondered, if kissing was related to 'tu' usage. My new french neighbour lurched towards me with kisses after SECOND meeting. I confessed to being a little bit horrified ! He speaks excellent english and likes to practice his english so we tend to speak in that language. however, on the rare occasions that i do speak to him in french, or try to clarify wht he is trying to say in english (which is weird cos his english is actually much better than my french i think), then i do use 'vous'; but that seems a bit ridiculous when you then kiss someone! Having said that for some reason he spoke to me in german the other day and i automatically replied and used 'du' so perhaps he thinks i am a little confused. any idea if kissing stage is reached if tu could safely be used ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 The French shake hands the first time they meet you and from then on it's often the "bise". Just another way of greeting which doesn't always mean they like you! Just habit. Found this extract on another site:"In the meantime, keep in mind that la bise is NOT a kiss. It's just a hello or a good-bye. And more and more, it's being replaced with a friendly handshake. As a guest in France, let your French hosts take the lead!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Zoff Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 "This is a good system and one which I employ myself - only using "tu" when it is used to me."The only problem with everyone waiting for the other to make the first move is that no one then makes it!I enjoy French politeness, too, but am none too keen on remaining excessively and unnaturally formal because of a protocol that French people themselves seem unsure about. If they are loosening up a bit, I see that as a positive thing. It doesn't have to mean that good manners go out of the window and I would not dream of causing offence by tu-ing someone who clearly preferred to be addressed with vous. I see that as their prerogative.I am finding that even some quite conservative French people seem to enjoy the effect on themselves of having less formal Brits (lager louts and other loud-mouths excepted) in their midst. Not long after I bought the house, my son-in-law (a very outgoing character who could then speak hardly a word of French) and I were invited back to the home of a French couple we had met only that evening, for refreshments. There followed a very lively discussion, my son-in-law succeeding in getting his points across remarkably well with a combination of effective body language and gesticulations, supplemented with dodgy translations from me. The husband's views might be described as reactionary, right wing, nationalistic, etc, but they said they had a really enjoyable evening (as we did). I bump into him regularly now and while our opinions are often miles apart, he seems more tolerant than he was at first and we get on like a house on fire, using first names and tu-ing and vous-ing as we please. (If he thought I was being offensive or disrespectful, he would probably set his hunting dogs on me....)I agree though with the approach "whenever in doubt, use vous". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
londoneye Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 ah and i thought i was special !thanks for that - thankfully no other near strangers have felt the need to lurch towards me! Not that i am particularly averse but just not really used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patmobile Posted July 24, 2006 Share Posted July 24, 2006 On the golf course it is customary, so I'm told, to tu-toi your playing partners, whoever they might be and whether or not you've met them before. Once back in the clubhouse, the more formal form of address should be used, if appropriate.I've played, on tu-toi terms, with amongst other dignitaries, the president of a major french bank, and a member of parliament. Back in the bar, in the presence of the banker's minions and the politician's constituents, it felt perfectly reasonable to revert to "vous", as a signal that I did'nt feel I had become a special buddy.This temporay relaxation of the rule might apply in any sporting situation. Be careful, though. One explanation for Zidane's headbut in the World Cup Final is that the Italian kept calling him "tu".Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baptiste Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 If you make a "bise " to a man (except if you are a child ) ,you will be known like an homosexual (it is chocking but right ).With a man ,you have to shake his hand and call him "vous ".In France ,we observe a rule :we use "vous " with everybody except children or friends .Au revoir et linguistiquement -sans prétention sous jacente - vôtre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWINKLE Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Hi Baptiste,You obviously don't have any male musician friends. It's very normal for members of the same group to 'faire la bise'. However, I think that the non-musical males do raise their eyebrows when they see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christine Animal Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 If you have a brother-in-law Baptiste, do you shake his hand and say vous? [:P] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tourangelle Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Brother in law, cousins, uncles, exuberant types in the south - loads of male kissing going on!!As for the "tu" / "vous" distinction, it is far from clear cut. All teachers, for example, say "tu" to each other when they work in the same place, even if they don't know each other. Students at university also use "tu" all the time with all their peers. Family members don't always. I don't use "tu" with all my husband's family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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