néanmoins: can someone please

[Loiseau]

Thinking back to those English grammar lessons - oh so far away now...  I do remember a few rules:

"A noun is the name of a person, place or thing."

"A verb is a word of doing or being."

And a little rhyme about adverbs:

"How, when and where, the adverbs tell.

As: quickly, slowly, here, now, well."

I suppose we had rhymes for other parts of speech, too, but can't remember any more.

(Oooh, good old Google!  Just for you, Chancer, here's the whole rhyme !)

Angela

[Frecossais]

I hadn't heard that one before, Angela. We just learned bald statements: A noun is the name of any person, place, animal or thing. A verb is a doing word. A pronoun takes the place of a noun. An adjective is a word that describes a noun.

An adverb modifies (describes) a verb. Those are the ones I remember.

Now in primary schools conjunctions go by the name of connectives. (Just thought I'd throw that in.) [:)]

[Rabbie]

We were taught that not only did adverbs modify verbs they could also modify adjectives and other adverbs.

He ran quickly  - modifying the verb ran

He was a really fast runner

He ran really quickly

Hope this helps, Idun

 

[mint]

Well, I was trying not to confuse Chancer so I deliberately only gave examples of adverbs of manner to give him a flavour of their role in a sentence.  Of course there are also adverbial phrases and adverbial clauses.

Hey, do you think I should get out some of my old grammar books (of which I have some really serious ones) and do some revision myself? 

Edit:  someone sent me an email today, je vous remercie vivement de ......Never having come across this adverb before, I had to look it up to be sure.  Also another email said the person will send the stuff I have bought prochainement which was also new to me and now I love it so much I say it all the time![:D]

[Chancer]

The downside is that if like me you think more and more in French you may say something ridiculous like soonly in English, I dont think I have said that but some equally weird things, those occasions do show up differences between the French I know and the English in general.

If I said soonly I might get a strange look, maybe even the mickey taken which is good because at least then I know, the French are more likely to say "comment!" or "hein!" or turn to their wife and say "qu'est ce qu'il a dit?" or in many cases just not follow anything that I have said because of one incorrect or mispronounced word.

To be fair people especially friends do get "the ear" for my vache espagnole but the majority cant be bothered hence dont become friends,  I often wonder can I really be the only person that they have met or heard that speaks their langauge differently to them? Would they even  be able to mimic another nationality speaking French like most of us could in english?

[mint]

I, too, was thinking, Chance, that you don't need to know English grammar so much now and I didn't want to confuse you.  As you mostly speak French and as you can already speak English, it's really academic whether you need to know English grammatical terms.

I know lots of people who can speak  English very well and fluently (first language for some but not others) without ever having had an English grammar lesson in their lives.

I myself never gave a thought to grammar (although it was taught at school) until I had to do it with my TEFL course.  Sailed through various types of professional exams and a degree course with very little knowledge of grammar.  It's just something that you pick up along the way and either it grabs you and interests you or it doesn't.

I am known at all the French classes I have attended (in the 2 different places I have lived) that I HATE grammar lessons.  All the teachers console me and tell me it's necessaire but I still do not like it and cannot think of anything more boring than grammar lessons.  Give me a book to read, better still, read it with me and tell me the things about it that only a French person can (the cultural side) and I am as happy as Larry.

Just don't give me something that says, par exemple, les relatifs:  qui, que, où or anything to do with les pronoms.....ugh[:'(]

[Chancer]

As much as I dont like it I realise it is very necessary, having a knowledge of English grammar would help me to understand French grammar and sentence construction, because its taught in a formal structured way not knowing the basics in English holds me back, its like teaching someone say car words in French and saying the word for windscreen is pare brise except the student is Polish and doesnt speak English. I think my real yearning to understand it is to teach English one day.

I did an intensive immersion course in Spanish, we did very little grammar etc and learnt like children, we did do conjugation and some tenses though.

Then initially in France I did a 2 week intensive course with a newly qualified (native speaker) French teacher, she had the latest and most up to date (for france anyway) teaching methods and we did very little grammar but lots and lots of work on conjugaison of the basic tenses, present, passé composé, imparfait, futur, conditionell IIRC. We never got involved with the compound tenses, active/passive voice, subjonctifs etc, it was really all about communication and was excellent.

Then it took me nearly 18 months to find a French teacher around here despite me being very persistant and driven (gives you some idea of what its like), she was much more formal and I got I suppose the education that most French kids do (she teaches English and French at une lycée professionelle)  I found it a hard slog and not as rewarding as with the first teacher but then learning follows the law of diminishing returns. What I didnt realise then was just how valuable the hard graft was going to prove to be.

We only had 18 months of lessons together and that was 5 years ago but I have made the greatest strides during that time by being able to apply the theory that I learnt to what I read and hear.

Without the slog at the very least I would not be able to write letters like I do with only the 5 basic tenses, I know a guy who has been out here for years, speaks very good French, is confidant and articulate, he is regional sales manager for a French company but when I hear him give a presentation I hear errors and  I realise that he is restricted in what tenses he can use, he is however supremely competent with what he does have, his real weakness is that he cannot write a business letter, he composes them in English and his wife translates them.

[mint]

Well, yes, Chance, I have to agree with this latest post of yours.  You do need to understand the structure of a language if you want to have mastery over it.

I think it's a bit like playing a musical insturment or singing.  I do know people who can pick up a tune on a keyboard or sing in a choir but who can't read music.  To my mind, their musical knowledge is always going to be limited, as is their performing.

I was going to say like Paul McCartney but I am going to be crucified so I shall go to bed instead.

Bonne nuit, Chance.

[Frecossais]

However Chancer, the fact that you want to learn about the structure of the French language speaks volumes about your ability to communicate.

In my experience, the first thing people want and need to do is to communicate, and listening to it and using it every day are great ways of doing this. It's only when communication is established that they want to learn further, and as SW17 says, the next step is to learn the structure.

It's a shame that you can't find a Prof who will help you to understand, keep looking. In the meantime, reflect that even if you don't know the terminology of language, (adverb, clauses etc), you know unconsciously their function. 

My OH is a learner who has no background of English grammar, but all he wants to do is to communicate in French. Since we started spending months rather than holidays in France, he has begun to use it, still mostly words at this stage. I want to know how and when to use the subjunctive, how to say things like "My kitchen was a mess after I spilled oil all over the floor."etc.

Maybe we'll both achieve our goals one day.......

[Chancer]

Where there is a will there is a way, if a man(or woman) is hungry he will find a way to eat etc etc. Well that hunger can equally be the hunger to communicate, to express oneself better or as well as in our native tongue so I am sure you will both get there.

I set myself all sorts of targets like being able to talk freely on any subject, to express emotion, approval, disproval, to debate etc in far greater detail than just a thumbs up, a smile and "bon(ne)" they seemed impossible dreams at the time but I have beaten them all and keep raising the bar.

My next one is to be able to train people in French as a MF1 diving instructor, quite a hard one as you have to have very good communication skills to encourage people to do what their bodies natural instinct screams at them not to, and to explain what is happening and why, the positive side is that once underwater it doesnt matter what nationality they are as its all sign language and gestes but you still need to be a very good non verbal communicator something I think we all develop when learning a new language, also watching the facial reactions of others is something we develop to see if our pidgin French has been understood, was that smile confusion, comprehension or condescension? [:D]