Al Rogers Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I'm battling to improve my French ahead (as they say in newspapers) of moving to France and was surprised by the title of the book Le Club des Incorrigibles Optimistes. I would have expected "Incorrigibles" to follow "Optimistes". Thanks in advance to anyone who can shed some light on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroTrash Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 When you put an adjective in front of a noun, that would usually follow the noun, the effect is to emphasise the adjective. So the club is specifically for INCORRIGIBLE optimists. It's the incorrigibleness of them that's interesting, not their optimism.It's a subtlety that you have to get used to really, by seeing it done. An "affreux événement" is somehow more shockingly awful than an "événement affreux".IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Rogers Posted January 8, 2017 Author Share Posted January 8, 2017 Many thanks. I'd never come across this before. Yet another subtlety to add to the long list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 [quote user="EuroTrash"]When you put an adjective in front of a noun, that would usually follow the noun, the effect is to emphasise the adjective. So the club is specifically for INCORRIGIBLE optimists. It's the incorrigibleness of them that's interesting, not their optimism.It's a subtlety that you have to get used to really, by seeing it done. An "affreux événement" is somehow more shockingly awful than an "événement affreux".IMHO.[/quote]Not only that, ET, there is also the fact that incorigibles is a long word. Usually, the adjectives that are placed in front of nouns are short; bon, vieux, neuf, etc. The "long" ones, with several syllables, intelligent, international, etc tend to be the ones put behind the nouns.So, your explanation seems to be excellent. The adjective here takes centre place[I] Thank you, ET, and thank you Al for asking the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 This is quite a good article:http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/adjectives_4.htm Placement after the nounMost descriptive adjectives are placed after the noun they modify. These normally have an analytical meaning, in that they classify the noun into a certain category. These types of adjectives include shape, color, taste, nationality, religion, social class, and other adjectives that describe things like personality and mood.Placement before the nounCertain adjectives are placed before the noun, some which you can memorize with the acronym "BAGS": Beauty Age Good and bad Size (except for grand with people - see 3, below)These descriptors - and a few others - are considered inherent qualities of the noun: une jolie fille - pretty girl un jeune homme - young man une nouvelle maison - new house un bon enfant - good child un petit problème - small problem les sincères condoléances - sincere condolences les vagues promesses - vague promises. Placement depends on meaningSome adjectives have both a figurative and an analytic (literal) sense and can thus be placed on either side of the noun. When the adjective is figurative, it goes before the noun, and when it's analytic, it goes after the noun. Figurative: mes vertes années my green (fruitful) yearsLiteral: des légumes verts green vegetablesFigurative: un grand homme a great manLiteral: un homme grand a tall manFigurative: un triste individu a sad (mean or bad) personLiteral: un individu triste a sad (crying) personFigurative: mon ancienne école my old (former) schoolLiteral: mon école ancienne my old (aged) schoolFigurative: un certain regard a certain (type of) lookLiteral: une victoire certaine a certain (assured) victory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Yes, I remember particularly the grand homme one.I used to say Charles de Gaulle est un grand homme qui est aussi un homme grand to make my French teacher smile.I am mostly OK with adjectives but adverbs I do find a bit tricky sometimes: to place before or after the verb? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Rogers Posted January 10, 2017 Author Share Posted January 10, 2017 Bags is my new watchword, Norman. Thank you. I should probably have done a little more research myself but thought the topic might be of interest to others and knew you guys would have some useful insight. It's all quite fascinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 So, un grand homme grand or un petit homme petit? Thinkng of de Gaulle and Sarkozy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Or 'un petit homme avec une grande....' considering that Sarko has Carla Bruni, and Hollande has had 'pas mal de belles femmes' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 [quote user="woolybanana"]So, un grand homme grand or un petit homme petit? Thinkng of de Gaulle and Sarkozy.[/quote]Personally, prefer un bel homme myself to either of the above!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 You really are better, Doudoune; un chere femme chere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Wondering about that last 'chere', as I tend to be peu couteuse, happily call myself Bargain Lil to be honest![;-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyh4 Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Bargain Lidl?I didn't think you approved of them.Oh sorry - Lil. My eyes are playing me up this evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 No most certainly Bargain Lil.......... although I use Lidl, quite like some of their products, but not all. What I am not is someone who likes shopping at Aldi, even though they seem to have more choice, too much of their stuff has been disappointing for me.AND Aldi won an award for mince pies a couple of years ago........ well, all I can say is that who so ever voted for them, had NOT tasted proper baking, they were absolutely awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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