NormanH Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 IF it gets through ...The interesting part is Section 2 on Citizens' Rights from page 16 onwardshttps://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/draft_withdrawal_agreement_0.pdf& /en 32(g)the document evidencing the status shall be issued free of charge or for a charge not exceeding that imposed on citizens or nationals of the host State for the issuing of similar documents;(h)persons who, before the end of the transition period, hold a valid permanent residence document issued under Article 19 or 20 of Directive 2004/38/EC or hold a valid domestic immigration document conferring a permanent right to reside in the host State, shall have the right to exchange that document within the period referred to in point (b) of this paragraph for a new residence document upon application after a verification of their identity, a criminality and security check in accordance with point (p) of this paragraph and confirmation of their ongoing residence; such new residence documents shall be issued free of charge;(i)the identity of the applicants shall be verified through the presentation of a valid passport or national identity card for Union citizens and United Kingdom nationals, and through the presentation of a valid passport for their respective family members and other persons who are not Union citizens or United Kingdom nationals; the acceptance of such identity documents shall not be made conditional upon any criteria other than that of the validity of the document. Where the identity document is retained by the competent authorities of the host State while the application is pending, the host State shall return that document upon application without delay, before the decision on the application has been taken;& /en 33(j)supporting documents other than identity documents, such as civil status documents, may be submitted in copy. Originals of supporting documents may be required only in specific cases where there is a reasonable doubt as to the authenticity of the supporting documents submitted;(k)the host State may only require Union citizens and United Kingdom nationals to present, in addition to the identity documents referred to in point (i) of this paragraph, the following supporting documents as referred to in Article 8(3) of Directive 2004/38/EC:(i)where they reside in the host State in accordance with point (a) of Article 7(1) of Directive 2004/38/EC as workers or self-employed, a confirmation of engagement from the employer or a certificate of employment, or proof that they are self-employed;(ii)where they reside in the host State in accordance with point (b) of Article 7(1) of Directive 2004/38/EC as economically inactive persons, evidence that they have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host State during their period of residence and that they have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host State; or& /en 34(iii)where they reside in the host State in accordance with point (c) of Article 7(1) of Directive 2004/38/EC as students, proof of enrolment at an establishment accredited or financed by the host State on the basis of its legislation or administrative practice, proof of comprehensive sickness insurance cover, and a declaration or equivalent means of proof, that they have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host State during their period of residence. The host State may not require such declarations to refer to any specific amount of resources.With regard to the condition of sufficient resources, Article 8(4) of Directive 2004/38/EC shall apply;(l)the host State may only require family members who fall under point (e)(i) of Article 10(1)or Article 10(2) or(3) of this Agreement and who reside in the host State in accordance with point (d) of Article 7(1) or Article 7(2) of Directive 2004/38/EC to present, in addition to the identity documents referred to in point (i) of this paragraph, the following supporting documents as referred to in Article8(5) or 10(2) of Directive 2004/38/EC:(i)a document attesting to the existence of a family relationship or registered partnership;& /en 35(ii)the registration certificate or, in the absence of a registration system, any other proof that the Union citizen or the United Kingdom national with whom they reside actually resides in the host State;(iii)for direct descendants who are under the age of 21 or who are dependants and dependent direct relatives in the ascending line, and for those of the spouse or registered partner, documentary evidence that the conditions set out in point (c) or (d) of Article 2(2) of Directive 2004/38/EC are fulfilled;(iv)for the persons referred to in Article 10(2) or (3) of this Agreement, a document issued by the relevant authority in the host State in accordance with Article 3(2) of Directive 2004/38/EC.With regard to the condition of sufficient resources as concerns family members who are themselves Union citizens or United Kingdom nationals, Article 8(4) of Directive 2004/38/EC shall apply;& /en 36(m)the host State may only require family members who fall under point (e)(ii) of Article 10(1) or Article 10(4) of this Agreement to present, in addition to the identity documents referred to in point (i) of this paragraph, the following supporting documents as referred to in Articles8(5) and 10(2) of Directive 2004/38/EC:(i)a document attesting to the existence of a family relationship or of a registered partnership;(ii)the registration certificate or, in the absence of a registration system, any other proof of residence in the host State of the Union citizen or of the United Kingdom nationals whom they are joining in the host State;(iii)for spouses or registered partners, a document attesting to the existence of a family relationship or a registered partnership before the end of the transition period;(iv)for direct descendants who are under the age of 21 or who are dependants and dependent direct relatives in the ascending line and those of the spouse or registered partner, documentary evidence that they were related to Union citizens or United Kingdom nationals before the end of the transition period and fulfil the conditions set out in point (c) or (d) of Article 2(2) of Directive 2004/38/EC relating to age or dependence;& /en 37(v)for the persons referred to in Article 10(4) of this Agreement, proof that a durable relationship with Union citizens or United Kingdom nationals existed before the end of the transition period and continues to exist thereafter;(n)for cases other than those set out in points (k), (l) and (m), the host State shall not require applicants to present supporting documents that go beyond what is strictly necessary and proportionate to provide evidence that the conditions relating to the right of residence under this Title have been fulfilled;(o)the competent authorities of the host State shall help the applicants to prove their eligibility and to avoid any errors or omissions in their applications; they shall give the applicants the opportunity to furnish supplementary evidence and to correct any deficiencies, errors or omissions;(p)criminality and security checks may be carried out systematically on applicants, with the exclusive aim of verifying whether the restrictions set out in Article 20 of this Agreement may be applicable. For that purpose, applicants may be required to declare past criminal convictions which appear in their criminal record in accordance with the law of the State of conviction at the time of the application. The host State may, if it considersthis essential, apply the procedure set out in Article 27(3) of Directive 2004/38/EC with respect to enquiries to other States regarding previous criminal records;& /en 38(q)the new residence document shall include a statement that it has been issued in accordance with this Agreement;(r)the applicant shall have access to judicial and, where appropriate, administrative redress procedures in the host State against any decision refusing to grant the residence status. The redress procedures shall allow foran examination of the legality of the decision, as well as of the facts and circumstances on which the proposed decision is based. Such redress procedures shall ensure that the decision is not disproportionate.2.During the period referred to in point (b) of paragraph 1 of this Article and its possible one-year extension under point (c) of that paragraph, all rights provided for in this Part shall be deemed to apply to Union citizens or United Kingdom nationals, their respective family members, and otherpersons residing in the host State, in accordance with the conditions and subject to the restrictions set out in Article 20.3.Pending a final decision by the competent authorities on any application referred to in paragraph 1, and pending a final judgment handed down in case of judicial redress sought against any rejection of such application by the competent administrative authorities, all rights provided for in this Part shall be deemed to apply to the applicant, including Article 21 on safeguards andright of appeal, subject to the conditions set out in Article 20(4).& /en 394.Where a host State has chosen not to require Union citizens or United Kingdom nationals, their family members, and other persons, residing in its territory in accordance with the conditions set out in this Title, to apply for the new residence status referred to in paragraph 1 as a condition for legal residence, those eligible for residence rights under this Title shall have the right to receive, in accordance with the conditions setout in Directive 2004/38/EC, a residence document, which may be in a digital form, that includes a statement that it has been issued in accordance with this Agreement.ARTICLE19Issuance of residence documents during the transition period1.During the transition period, a host State may allow applications for a residence status or residence document as referred to in Article 18(1) and (4) to be made voluntarily from the date of entry into force of this Agreement.2.Decisions to accept or refuse such applications shall be taken in accordance with Article18(1) and (4). Decisions under Article 18(1) shall have no effect until after the end of the transition period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCCMB Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 I think I'll wait and see the film. That c&p is making my eyes sore. Sorry Norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardian Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 Yes ...... lost the will to live.Does it mean that Mrs G & I won’t be herded up and put in a cattle truck headed for Calais on 1st April-ish?Sick to death of the whole business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 Thanks, Norman, for your efforts that the Forum's format managed to make almost unintelligible.[:D]Not that hard to follow the gist Mme Beardie[:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 Eye watering but intelligible.We have the right of residence and to have relevant document if required, depending on the decision of the host country.Nothing about health cover or have I missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted November 15, 2018 Author Share Posted November 15, 2018 I am still going through the 585 pages...I did find this: "wherethey reside in the host State in accordance with point (b) of Article7(1) of Directive2004/38/EC as economically inactive persons, evidence that they have sufficientresources for themselves and their family members not to become aburden on thesocial assistance system of the host State during their period ofresidence and that theyhave comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host State"I presume that the issue of whether the British government continues to provide this under the S1 up to Britain not to Europe, but as I said I haven't finished reading Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathar Tours Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 Best of luck Norman. We all have sections of it which are important us as an individual. My interest is in recognising qualifications after Brexit. The problem I discovered is there are so many links to existing EU legislation it becomes almost impossible at times because you do have to read them as well to get the full picture. You only have one in your bit you have mentioned some have 10 or more then even more in the footing of the page. Add in the further 100 Annexes of further information then talk about complicated or what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Zoff Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 I'm going to leave it for a day or two.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judith Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 [quote user="Alan Zoff"]I'm going to leave it for a day or two....[/quote]Me too, it might all come crashing down yet ..it is obvious that it is not at all universally liked or yet agreed.Interesting to return from Blighty last night after a long weekend of Remembrance and Old School and Uni reunions for hubby, to find what happens when you are in the midst of that wonderful journey allocated to you by Ryanair ... all went as well as could be expected as it happened ... but everyone we spoke to described the current scenario as chaos or shambles, regardless of which side of the divide they might be .. we didn't always bother asking which way they voted ... everyone thinks its a shambles at present! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alittlebitfrench Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 Given what is happening in the UK today, I think we can safely say Brexit is finished.So get on with your lives and don't worry about getting a CDS. LOLTrump will be gone by next summer and life can get back to normal.Well, the French the will keep striking mind you. But that is normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 I couldn't manage to read everything.I shall wait until it has all been sorted, this could after all affect us badly or not at all, and we shall get on with which ever scenario.The thing is that people used to have to have sufficient funds to live on and not be a burden to the french state...... and I agree with that. No one should. That they may be a burden in their homeland is quite another thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 Being pedantic, this is a proposal, not an agreement (apart from the cabinet eventually agreeing to put it forward.)It still has to be discussed with EU and await their agreement. Or not.And confirmed by parliament at some stage. Assuming all this happens, then comes the 'transitionary period'. Only God knows how long this would take.It occurred to me that a document this size must have been prepared ages ago by the civil service and presented as a last resort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted November 15, 2018 Author Share Posted November 15, 2018 In my original post I did make it clear that this was just explaining what was in this document. That got lost in the scrambling.Today it seems as if it will be difficult for it to go through given the antics of those who are supposed to be governing the country.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 The way things are going at the moment it might not matter what it says[:(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Zoff Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 As I feared from the outset, it will mean crashing out without a deal with Boris as PM. Every dodgy regime looking for a desperate trading partner must be rubbing their hands with glee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted November 15, 2018 Author Share Posted November 15, 2018 Would that be a DAFT Brexit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard51 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 What a choice from Maggie May. A fudge and promise of yet more talks to get impossibly-good trade agreement OR a chaotic costly exit.Perhaps the DUP will be the saviours - formerly known as the Protest-ant unionist party and still protesting against the catholics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Not sure what other choices there might have been, dickdick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard51 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Staying put like 48% voted for and probably lots more would now vote for since reality strikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Well, another referendum is the ace up Theresa May’s sleeve, dickdick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Maybe it's too late to go back to pre Article 50 - from Wiki:"Is Article 50 reversible?According to the influential German finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble, "The British Government has said we will stay with the Brexit. ... On 29 March 2017, the EU Commission stated "It is up to the United Kingdom to trigger Article 50. But once triggered, it cannot be unilaterally reversed" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 [quote user="Patf"]Maybe it's too late to go back to pre Article 50 - from Wiki:"Is Article 50 reversible?According to the influential German finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble, "The British Government has said we will stay with the Brexit. ... On 29 March 2017, the EU Commission stated "It is up to the United Kingdom to trigger Article 50. But once triggered, it cannot be unilaterally reversed"[/quote]I'm sure it could be reversed by mutual agreement - but almost certainly without some of the concessions and exemptions formerly enjoyed by the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 I think I might have been wrong on the previous page.They're now referring to this as the chequers deal, and it seems the EU have already agreed? so she's now trying to sell it to cabinet and Parliament?All very confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathar Tours Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Well it seems the EU has said it's a "Take it or leave it" deal.https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/16/brexit-deal-take-it-or-leave-it-eu-tells-britain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard51 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 My understanding is that the UK will be able to stay - but hey Maggie May wont give the legal advice. Is the "take it or leave it" comment not just saying that that is the deal, period, no more assing about. Take it, stay or rugger off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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