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Speeding fine confusion?


Daft Doctor

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Hi, a little longwinded, but bear with....My uncle was caught speeding en route through France to Spain in March 2018, doing (I'm ashamed to say) 59 kph over the speed limit of 90. He was fined 750 euros on the spot, which he paid in cash and for which he received a receipt. He also had his license confiscated and was banned from driving in France for 3 months.

He thought that was the end of the matter, but in May this year, he received an 'ordonnance penale' issued by the Tribunal de Police de Tours, dated April 2019, saying that he had been fined 750 euros plus 31 euros admin fee, and that 781 euros was payable within one month, with a 20% reduction if paid within that time. There was no mention on the paperwork of the 750 euros paid over to the Gendarmes on the spot.

He had a letter drafted in French by someone in the UK and sent it recorded delivery to the Tribunal in Tours, explaining the situation, that he paid a fine of 750 euros on the spot, that his license had been confiscated, etc, and included the copy of the receipt for 750 euros received from the Gendarmes at the time.

He heard nothing back, but this week received a further demand (Avis avant poursuites) for payment of the 781 euros referred to in the ordonnance penale.

He has asked me to help sort this out, but in my opinion there seems to be only two possible explanations for the demands for payment received this year:

1. He has been fined an ADDITIONAL 750 euros plus admin costs. The maximum fine for first offence speeding more than 50 kph over the limit is 1500 euros. On his receipt from the Gendarmes, the amount of the fine isn't specified, only that he's paid the 750.

If it is an additional fine, this would explain the 13 months delay between the offence and receiving the new demand, and the fact that they seem to have ignored his letter and evidence sent to them in May. If this is a case of an additional fine however, would they not have mentioned somewhere on the paperwork that the total fine was 1500 euros, that 750 euros had been paid in cash, and that the 750 + 31 was the outstanding amount?? Seems odd that there would be no mention of the total fine, and 1500 is the maximum, not the minimum....

2. It's a typical example of French administrative inefficiency, that they haven't taken into account that he has paid a 750 sum in cash already. The fine is therefore down as unpaid, even though it was. The thing against this theory is that a fine requested by the Gendarmes must be paid on the spot at the time of the offence. If you don't have cash, they normally escort you to a cash machine or confiscate the car until it is paid.

Long winded, sorry, but anyone out there who can answer the question of whether scenario 1. or 2. is the likely answer, either from knowledge or experience... Thanks in advance
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I was told never to pay the fine on the spot in France unless you have a French cheque. If not you can pay the fine through the internet. The reason for this is because the device used to measure the speed also records it plus the number plate (yes I am talking about the one the police use rather than a permanent roadside one). Thing is there has, I am told, been several cases of the police running two books for fines, one for cash and another for cheques and guess who keeps the money on the cash only book.

So when the police device was checked it automatically uploaded his details and because of dodgy practice no fine is marked as being paid. In other words he was ripped off especially as you mention there were no exact definition of why the fine was issued on the paperwork he received from the police on the day.
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Hi, just to clarify, the written receipt given to my uncle for the 750 euros cash he paid at the time to the Gendarmes did indeed include all details of the offence, including the speed recorded, the net speed after margin of error and the speed limit on the road in question. That 750 euros in cash had been collected was also clearly mentioned. The only thing missing was the written amount for the fixed fine (amende forfaitaire). I assume this was because there isn't a fixed fine for speeding in excess of 50 kph over the limit, merely a maximum fine.

That brings me to the point made by BJSLIV. The figure of 1500 euros mentioned is not fixed, but as stated above, is a maximum fine for a 1st offence. The thing is, never on any of the paperwork is a fine of 1500 euros mentioned, merely 750, and no mention is made of the 750 euros handed over in March 2018.

I guess my issue is whether I should advise my uncle to pay, or write to the tribunal de police in Tours and tell them again that he has paid 750 euros and ask them to confirm whether or not this is a case of duplication error, or indeed an additional fine........

My uncle and aunt (particularly) are worried that as they travel through France next week en route to Spain, they will be tracked and hassled for this money. I've told them however that as the official demand for payment has a date of 25th July on it, they aren't technically in default as yet, so shouldn't worry........
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That is one heck of an speed and, well it would be about twenty years ago, when they were confiscating cars and destroying them when drivers broke the law like that. It did happen, but had to stop as company cars /vans were being destroyed.

Look at these links too, should be live...... says that the fine can be 1500€. And confiscation is mentioned.

 Did they have points taken off in the UK???

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Hi, yes it is a heck of a speed, and what possessed him to think that was ok is anyone's guess. In one of the links idun posted it states that the fine for more than 50kph over the limit is set by a judge at tribunal, which fits in with the absence of a fixed fine on his quittance from the gendarmes, and would explain the 13 months delay between the offence and receiving the fine notification from the tribunal. The paperwork suggests that the fine was set at 750 euros by the judge at the Tribunal de Police in April, not 1500, and my uncle has already paid that 750 in cash. I am more inclined to think that, somewhere along the line, this cash payment has not been properly linked to my uncle's dossier, probably as there was no crime number allocated to his case at the time of the payment, merely a receipt number on the quittance.

What I can't then explain is why despite writing in full to the authorities back in May, including evidence of having made the payment, there has been no reply from the Tribunal de Police de Tours and this recent 'notice before action' has been issued. I can't in all honesty advise him to pay a further 781 euros when there is no evidence that he has been fined 1500 euros in total. The fact he was on a dual carriageway may make it a less serious offence in the eyes of the tribunal compared to say doing 105 kph in a 50 kph urban road. For that reason, the judge may have set the fine at less than the maximum.

Anyway, if anyone has any further thoughts, knowledge or experience which might help me, I'd be most grateful, so please fire away....
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Idun, in answer to your question, no, points are not transferred to the UK licence for offences in France. Interesting enough though, when my uncle's licence was confiscated by the gendarmes, they told him it would be returned to the DVLA in the UK and they would send it out to him. It never arrived, and when he contacted the DVLA about it, they were unaware that it had been confiscated and told him that they have never had any UK licences sent to them from France! He had to buy a replacement. It might mean that not every gendarme is aware of procedure.....
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Daft Doctor wrote :

Anyway, if anyone has any further thoughts, knowledge or experience which might help me, I'd be most grateful, so please fire away....

No experience .. but having read Idun's links, though not having had sight of the exact wording on your Uncle's paperwork, in the present situation of your Aunt and Uncle travelling through France imminently I would err on the side of caution and pay the 781€ minus 20%.

My reason : there is no way of knowing exactly how your Uncle's 'case' lies within the French system at present. Or what info concerning the situation is available to gendarmes so, potentially, his car might be at risk of confiscation if it is 'clocked' in any way, shape or form during their journey through France.

Personally I wouldn't risk it for 625€ .. but your uncle might be braver than me.

Have they thought about taking the ferry to Santander ?
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I am more inclined to stick with what I suggested especially now it seems they took his licence and never sent it to the UK. I mean what would be the point of taking the licence from somebody who is transiting the country? No sorry I think he has been stitched like a kipper and will have to pay the fine. He can do that over the internet by bank card.
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Cathar Tours wrote :

I mean what would be the point of taking the licence from somebody who is transiting the country? No sorry I think he has been stitched like a kipper and will have to pay the fine. He can do that over the internet by bank card.

It is automatic in France to take the driving licence off anyone who breaks the law in that spectacular fashion.

It is common to see this happening, especially in the summer holiday dash, on French telly programmes which follow the lives of the motorway police.

Why should they make a difference for someone who was crossing the country rather than just targetting the person rushing down to the south coast.

No kippering involved .. the basic fine is 750€ plus whatever the tribunal judge decides should be added .. up to a max of 1500€ in this case.
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Quote DaftDoc

My uncle and aunt (particularly) are worried that as they travel through France next week en route to Spain, End quote

I think, to be on the safe side, your aunt had better do all the driving in France next week.

It's bound to be too late to get a crossing direct to Santander at this peak holiday time.

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Hi and thank you. I spoke to my uncle today and he told me that immediately after the offence he looked online and the maximum fine for his offence at that time (March 2018) was 750€ (it may have been increased to 1500€ afterwards). He has paid this and my belief is that the cash payment has not been linked to his dossier and that his letter of June this year pointing this out is waiting on a pile to be processed. He is not contemplating paying his fine twice and I don't blame him....
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The link is live and is about January 2017 and it still says 1500€.

So looks like he owes more money. And he wasn't just going even five MPH over the limit this was serious speeding.

OK so who doesn't creep over the speed limit, but what seems to have happened, and I may be wrong is that they have seen 90 and gone 90, well a tadge over as some of us do, only they were doing MPH and not KPH[:-))].

Tell him to pay up and be thankful his UK licence was not compromised otherwise it may have cost him more than that in car insurance increases....... and that is the most sensible answer I can give you really.

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This report from “Ouest-France" today has echoes of your uncle's case, DD.

"Un nouveau grand excès de vitesse a eu lieu sur les routes mayennaises, après ceux déjà enregistrés en fin de semaine dernière. Le dimanche 4 août 2019, en début d’après-midi, les motocyclistes de la Brigade motorisée de Mayenne interceptent le véhicule d’un automobiliste qui roule à 147 km/h, au lieu de 90, sur la route départementale 12, à hauteur de Champéon. Aussitôt, il s’est vu retirer son permis de conduire. Le conducteur sera prochainement convoqué devant la justice. Il risque une forte amende et la suspension de son permis de conduire."

So, as your uncle's case has now been "devant la justice”, he has had that "forte amende" slapped on him on top of what he has already paid.

Did they mention a “suspension de son permis de conduire"? If they are not returning it to him, maybe it is still suspended. In which case, should he be driving anywhere - even the U.K.?

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Hi, yes, he had his licence confiscated and was told he was banned for 3 months. It was never sent back. On the subject of the fine, apart from the quittance given by the gendarmes for his 750 euro cash payment in March 2018, there is no mention of it anywhere, certainly not in the court judgement or fine notification documents, which I think is odd, and doesn't support the notion that the court knew he had paid this amount already. The only figure mentioned is 750 euros as the fine, not '1500 - 750 already paid', so I have my doubts as to whether he owes anything other than the 31 euros court admin fee.

I am putting another letter together for him, re-stating the facts, re-submitting the evidence of the cash payment, his recent letter to the Tribunal, and asking for clarification regarding the fine before further money is spent. It turns out the pair of them aren't going over to Spain until next month, so there is a little time to try to clarify what he needs to pay. I will be suggesting in the letter that his payment in March 2018 might not have been linked to his dossier, so someone might at least check. We'll see...... To be honest, as the fine for such speed excess is set at a later date by the court, I'm not sure that the gendarmes should necessarily have taken a 'downpayment' there and then. The fact it wasn't a French registered car might have had something to do with that, worry over recovering the fine later maybe?

My uncle has also been at pains to tell me that he doesn't usually fly round the roads doing such speeds, but it was a case of maxing out an overtaking lane before it disappeared. Apparently he overtook both a lorry and a car, and the gendarmes told him they would have left him alone if he's settled at just overtaking the lorry..... Not an excuse, I know, but not habitually driving so fast at least.
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QUOTE DD

“...I am putting another letter together for him, re-stating the facts, re-submitting the evidence of the cash payment, his recent letter to the Tribunal, and asking for clarification regarding the fine before further money is spent...”

END QUOTE

I wonder if - given that half the staff are likely to be on holiday - it would not be better to try a phone call first?

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