Help please urgent re Attestation de droits

[Doodle]

Hi all,

A long story a 400% increase in Prelevements Sociales which I am sure is incorrect - I knew it was going to increase but not by that amount and am trying to sort out via my tax office and to which I am getting more fraught by the day!

Please could someone tell me where I can get a copy of the document that my tax office is asking me to send to them (copy of the email below). I have gone through all the documentation I have and don't seem to have what she is asking for for 2012.

(Vous devez  retourner l'attestation ou les attestations de droits à l'assurance maladie couvrant l'ensemble de l'année 2012 pour vous et votre épouse.)

Or l'attestation de droits communiquée concerne l'année 2013.

Votre dossier sera examiné dès lors que vous m'aurez fourni les bons documents.

Thanks in advance

[Lehaut]

Ameli.fr offer the service to download it, if you have registered on their site.

http://www.ameli.fr/assures/votre-caisse-loire-atlantique/vous-informer/validite-de-l-attestation-de-droits-modification_loire-atlantique.php

for example. Or ask for it direct at the CPAM you normally use.

[Doodle]

Thanks Lehaut.

I have checked out the site but it seems I can only get a 2013/14 attestion and not previous years. Am I not looking in the right place on the site?

Our office is not open until Wednesday afternoon and I was trying to get another bit of paper off asap!

[NormanH]

The Attestation is the document that comes with the carte vitale. In my case the carte was stuck on it so it looked rather unimportant, but is in fact the essential part. The card itself is only a practical means of communication to ensure a quicker reimbursement.

In other words you probably have the document somewhere so you may not need to get it from anywhere.

It usually has  a date on it showing when it is valid until, so it won't necessarily be from 2012, it could be from well before. (mine is up to 2024 for example)

Any attestation got from the site is from now on, not retrospective.

The tax people are probably interested in the 'code gestion' which shows whether you are paid for by the UK (as with an S1) or à la charge de la France in which case you would be liable for the charges.

As a rule of thumb if you do have to pay the charges they could be up to about 7.5% of your income. If they are more than this there is certainly a mistake.

[idun]

I had been waiting since December 2012 for our new one and sent several letters and emails. In the end I called and they took my email address and it was there to print out in a couple of minutes. Did that at the beginning of September.

[NormanH]

but kneegel needs the one that shows the cover that was in place for 2012, as the tax people need to know about that year.

It isn"t something for the future...

[Doodle]

Thanks Norman. I've found the document you refer to and have emailed the tax office.

However, it doesn't show when it is valid until, ours shows a start date only. We are early retirees our E106 expired in 2008. The original attestation shows our code gestion as 70 however my wife received a new photo card in 2010 and her code changed to 89.

This has all arisen because we are quering the 6.6% Prev Soc bill. We believe we should have been charged 3.8% as our tax bills have always been 0 euros. Yes we do usually pay Prev Soc of around 350 euros, this year it has come in at 1,500 euros!

We also pay our cotisations yearly to URSSAF for health cover.

Having thought that we had a little grasp of the system we are now totally confused by it all and just seem to be digging out paper after paper on a daily basis to forward to the tax office.

I have asked the tax office to explain to us but they just keep asking for documents and when we visited the office we didn't get any further.

Thanks again for your help, we will wait to see what transpires via our emails tomorrow!

[NormanH]

sThe rate this year is:

7,4 % (6,6 % de CSG + 0,5 % de CRDS + 0,3 % de CSA) pour la retraite de base (ou 3,8 % de CSG + 0,5 % de CRDS si vous bénéficiez d'un taux réduit de CSG)

to get the lower rate you have to be below the ceiling which  is 10024€ for a single person or 15376€ for a couple

http://www.legislation.cnav.fr/baremes_portail_unique/pa_lb_crds_seuil.htm

in any case as you can see there are exonerations depending on whether or not you were taxable in the previous year

more information here

http://www.malakoffmederic.com/particuliers/questions-reponses/retraite/retraite/les-prelevements-sociaux-sur-ma-retraite/quels-sont-les-prelevements-sociaux-retenus.jsp

1500€ would suggest a pension of over 20,000€

there is a form here to fill in if you think you shouldn't be paying:

http://www.malakoffmederic.com/media/_refonte-particuliers-2011/questions/att00015153/ABHX1302

prelevements-sociaux.pdf

HOWEVERit sounds to me as if you come into this category:

Cas d’exonération partielle de la CSG

Si vous êtes non imposable, mais que votre revenu fiscal de référence

est supérieur au barème établi par l’Administration fiscale, vous êtes

redevable des retenues suivantes :

• la CSG (Contribution Sociale Généralisée) au taux réduit de 3,80 %
• la CRDS (Contribution au Remboursement de la Dette Sociale) au taux de 0,50 %

Mais vous êtes exonéré de la Contribution de Solidarité pour l'Autonomie (CSA).

Please ask if you are stuck with the French...

[tinabee]

[quote user="NormanH"]but kneegel needs the one that shows the cover that was in place for 2012, as the tax people need to know about that year.
It isn"t something for the future...
[/quote]

this raises an interesting conundrum regarding attestations . . . every one I have downloaded ore received in the post has contained the phrase "

"Toute attestation de droits antérieure est à détruire"

which I take to mean - destroy all previous attestations. However, it would appear that this is not sensible.

[NormanH]

Yes I noticed that phrase recently, and ignored it...

I think that it is fine as far as the CRAM are concerned, but since social charges have been collected by the tax people they like to see the attestation as the code gestion shows who pays for health care and is  French sourced , rather than looking at the S1 which is of course a 'foreign' document.

This means that they need to see the attestation that was in force in the year the charges apply to (usually the previous year) not a new one.

[NormanH]

I am posting a simplified version of my last explanation, since it was a bit rambling[:)]

I think you come into the case of

Partial exoneration, where you should be paying CSG at 3.8% and CRDS at .5%, with no CSA

as below

You don't have to pay tax, but your revenu fiscal de référence is probably over the limit:

Cas d’exonération partielle de la CSG

Si vous êtes non imposable, mais que votre revenu fiscal de référence

est supérieur au barème établi par l’Administration fiscale, vous êtes

redevable des retenues suivantes :

• la CSG (Contribution Sociale Généralisée) au taux réduit de 3,80 %
• la CRDS (Contribution au Remboursement de la Dette Sociale) au taux de 0,50 %

Mais vous êtes exonéré de la Contribution de Solidarité pour l'Autonomie (CSA

[Doodle]

Thanks very much Norman for your very informative reply and links. Thank you also for your offer should we get stuck with the French - may well take your offer up.

I would like to collect a pension of over 20,000 but in fact I don't collect anywhere near that amount.

I printed a copy of the 2041GG that the tax info form suggested reading for further information for foreigners and from page 4 of this document came to the same conclusion as you in your final para and we are under the bareme.

Not heard from them this morning yet!

[Doodle]

Just an update, I sent an email to l'assurance maladie asking for a copy of my attestation for the period 2011/2012 and the reply has just come back as follows:

'Suite à votre message, je vous informe qu'il n'est pas possible d'éditer une attestation de

droits avec une date de validité antérieure à la date d'édition'.

So don't destroy any bits of paper as it is worth keeping them if only for future proof for other organisations.

[idun]

We left France over 5 years ago now and I am only just throwing away old paperwork, some I still have to look after.

I never threw any offical paperwork away, early friends suggested that I didn´t and I didn´t. And I never sent anything without a photo copy either.

I have had an interesting journey through my french life recently, paperwork from 1981 onwards. I half wish that it hadn´t all got to go, but it has.[:(]

[Doodle]

Oh dear idun that sounds very sad - maybe it's not I don't know your circumstances.

We hope that we never have to leave France but you just never know what may come to pass.......................

[suein56]

[quote user="knee gel"]

So don't destroy any bits of paper as it is worth keeping them if only for future proof for other organisations.[/quote]

As an acknowledgement to the oftimes wise words of Idun, spoken many moons ago when she was still in France and before my OH and I came here in 2005, she said to keep copies of everything - so I did. It drove us mad at times in our tiny, rented house with no cupboards and no storage, but I did. And sometimes now, when we need to drag up an ancient piece of paper to satisfy some department or other, I can usually find what I need. Though, since the move and now having various places to store stuff, it can be hard to remember where I might have actually put what I am looking for.

Sue

[idun]

Leaving France wasn´t sad though.[:D]

In fact I found some stuff that we had taken to France with us and as we were in a keep everything mode, that got kept too.

I  suppose that all that paperwork was the majority of our adult lives, as we were in our twenties when we went on a bit of an adventure that turned into rather more.............. and now we are in general terms ´old´ and it all has to go, either we do it, or we leave one hell of a mess for our kids.

If we had stayed in France, I would have kept the lot though.

[Doodle]

Know what you mean Sue. We brought over a small office filing cabinet - now know that we should have got the large one as it is now bursting and paperwork has spilled over into various cupboards and drawers. We can usually find what we are looking for...........after a couple of hours!

[idun]

 knee gel, no a small filing cabinet will not be big enough in the long run. I used to be very well organised and would put all the papers I was keeping in those box folders at the end of every year and mark the file accordingly. Worked very well and the supermarkets used to sell them quite cheaply.

[Doodle]

Just an update - I have today received a recalculated avis d'impot form 1501 officially stamped by the 'Controller Principal' complete with cheque reimbursing most of the prelev soc ie a refund of 1131 euros (yippee!). No covering letter of why or how the error was made but I've got my refund ........... maybe I gave them just a little headache (certainly gave myself one!) as I bombarded them with so much paperwork, emails and plus my visit to their office!

So Norman, we were both correct in our calculations - thanks for your input it helps to be assured that I hadn't misunderstood the forms.

Chris

[NormanH]

A good result. Well done on your persistence[:)]

[suein56]

[quote user="knee gel"]... a refund of 1131 euros (yippee!). No covering letter of why or how the error was made but I've got my refund ........... maybe I gave them just a little headache (certainly gave myself one!) as I bombarded them with so much paperwork, emails and plus my visit to their office! [/quote]

Well done; it seems persistence really does pay !