Propery tax - rather confused

[EGisvold]

We are in the process of trying to find our "dream home" in France (Normandy), and have a property that we think fits the bill very well. We have tried to get the estate agent (blueHomes) to tell us what 'Taxe fonciere' & 'Taxe d'habitation' are. They can give us a clear answer to the first, but not to the second, as they say it depends on (personal) income? Is this right? We cannot see any reference to personal income in all the books and web-sites we have read related to this. Any help would be apriciated.

 

Kind regards

Espen Gisvold

 

[Alexis]

Nothing to do with income.  It is to do with the house.  Every house in the street will pay a different amount.

Normally, there is not a lot of difference in the two.

I leave myself open to be corrected, of course

[EGisvold]

That was what we thought to, but the estate Agent says: "

Mr Gisvold, sorry but you are mistaken. 1/ The tax you are talking about is the taxe foncière (the one calculated on the size and state of the property + on the area). The taxe d'habitation is calculated on the personal incomes + personal situation (I called our accountant + the "centre des Impôts" today, even if I had no doubt about what I am saying and they both confirm...). So once I've been absolutely certain of my words, I called the "Centre des Impots de la ville d'Eu, of which depends the house in Rétonval. They confirm the actual owners never paid any taxe d'habitation because it has never been their main residence but we did a simulation. So on the basis of a single person with 20.000€ income a year the taxe d'habitation is AROUND 150€/year."

And this do make us wonder, are we far out or they????

Kind regards

[SaligoBay]

No no no, taxe d'hab is NOT simply based on your income!!!!   It's based on the potential rental value of the property, with random calculations of number of inhabitants, your collective (household) income, your local taxes, etc etc etc,  thrown in to completely confuse you.

Look:

Elle est calculée sur la valeur locative nette.
La valeur locative nette est égale à la valeur locative cadastrale du local diminuée, s'il s'agit de votre résidence principale, d'abattements obligatoires (pour charges de famille) ou facultatifs (en fonction du revenu…).

Enfin, sur cette valeur locative nette, s'appliquent des taux votés par la commune, l'intercommunalité et le département.

It's all on this website:

http://www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/dgi/public/particuliers.impot?pageId=part_taxe_habitation&espId=1&impot=TH&sfid=50

then look under "Qui paie l'impot?"

[Patf]

I was told that the mechanics of starting the assessment for Tax d'Habitation is triggered by making a declaration of income to the local Tax office. So in a way it's related to income. And if you aren't a resident in France for tax purposes this would never get off the ground. I seem to remember that the T d'H is based on the notional rental value of the house. But I have heard of people whose french house is definitely a holiday home who have to pay both taxes. So - clear as mud! Pat.

[Teamedup]

I would have thought that all properties would have had to pay taxe d'hab in principale. It is the basic local tax bill. Where as the fonciere is owner's tax.

I would be most concerned if I had not received a bill(s) for taxe d'hab on a habitable property. There again our bills are substantial and I wouldn't like to be coughing up for a couple of years back payments on them.

[LesLauriers]

Having arrived in France in late December I completed a French tax return covering the few days I was here and declared a small amount of interest received.

As a result we had no tax de habitation to pay in the following year.

[Gyn_Paul]

[quote]I was told that the mechanics of starting the assessment for Tax d'Habitation is triggered by making a declaration of income to the local Tax office. So in a way it's related to income. And if you are...[/quote]

It can also be triggered by finishing work in a Permit de construire - the tax authorites send you a form to detail how and by how much you have extended the livable area of your property.

Low income pensioners don't pay it either.

 

paul

[Llantony]

[quote]I would have thought that all properties would have had to pay taxe d'hab in principale. It is the basic local tax bill. Where as the fonciere is owner's tax. I would be most concerned if I had not ...[/quote]

I assumed we'd pay both taxes but although we bought in July 2003, have only had 1 bill.  French friends say 'if they don't ask for the money, don't ask why!'.  It is a 2nd home so is that why we haven't been asked to pay both taxes?

[Tennisbum]

We have had a maison secondaire in France for several years and have always paid both the Taxe Foncieres and Taxe d'Habitation.  It is my understanding, too, that the Taxe d'Habitation is based on some formula involving the rental value of the house.

I assure you that we have never provided anyone in France any information about our income, and, since we have joint ownership with another couple, it would have been difficult to know what income to report. 

Our T. d'H is a bit lower than our T.F., but I guess that will change this year when the TV tax is added to it.  I do understand that the tax may be reduced or waived for residents below a certain income level (similar to the TV tax), but that would hardly seem to apply to a maison secondaire.

[SaligoBay]

<<Having arrived in France in late December I completed a French tax return covering the few days I was here and declared a small amount of interest received.

As a result we had no tax de habitation to pay in the following year.>>

Could you explain this, Leslauriers?  We too pay tax in France, but we also pay 650 euros a year taxe d'hab.    Tell us all about your loophole! 

[Gyn_Paul]

This is pnly a guess - so please don't all jump down my throat - but perhaps the tax authorities make a distinction (in terms of discounting and excempting) between maisons principals and maisons secondaires ?

[Guest CFrost]

To quote the French News of Jan 2005 ‘……virtually everyone who lives here has to pay taxe d’habitation, whether they are tenants (even if they are just borrowing the house without paying rent), or second-home owners… unless they are officially disabled, on RMI (type of French welfare) or their income (as declared in your last tax return – 2003 at the moment) is below a certain ceiling.’ It gives this website as a reference to tables giving the various ceilings. www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/dgi/public/particuliers.impot?pageld=part_taxe_habitation&espld=1&impot=TH&sfid=50

 

Check out 'vos impôts' it gives all the details you require on habitation or fonciere.

[Ron Avery]

[quote]<<Having arrived in France in late December I completed a French tax return covering the few days I was here and declared a small amount of interest received. As a result we had no tax de habit...[/quote]

"Having arrived in France in late December I completed a French tax return covering the few days I was here"  

That seems reasonable, Saligo, you only have to pay tax in France from the day you get here , and I expect that this was done when LL got his tax return in March

If you a resident in France (live here >186 days), you don't usually complete a tax form until March for the previous year, they are going out now for 2004.  If you arrrive in the middle of the year,  as I did,  you only have to declare the income for that period, so your declaration is less than it will be for a "full" year.

As most probably know, if you are a "resident", you have to declare all income received whether it is has been taxed in the UK or not.  You then pay tax in France on that income (or not if you are below the thresholds)  there are exceptions to this, (Government pensions etc). 

Howevr, don't be fooled into thinking the French don't know that you are here, the other day I helped a friend complete his tax form for 2003, he had mistakenly thought that as his income was below the UK freepay level, he did not have to declare it in France, so keen to put this right, we went to the  Centre d'impots where he was gobsmacked to see his name was already on the French tax system

[zeb]

We completed tax returns last year for 2002  and 2003 showing very little income although we started the business in 2003. Got a 275 euro rebate from l'impots and a Tax d'habitation bill for 0 euros (yes, nil euros). Nice, but will probably go up this year!!

Hadn't had one before so it was obviously completing tax return which triggered it.

[Tennisbum]

You may find it helpful to go to this web page I found by Google-ing "taxe d'habitation".  It's a translation of a page from something called "Pratique France" and seems to explain the tax pretty thoroughly.  The link is:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.pratique.fr/argent/impot/daf1503.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dtaxe%2Bd%2527habitation%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

[EGisvold]

Thanks all

I followed one of the links, and found the following, which I thik is very clear (from a gov site):

 

CHAPTER 3 RESIDENCE TAX

 

Sufficiently furnished housing premises and their outbuildings (gardens, garages, private parking space) are subject to residence tax (i.e. dwelling tax). This tax is chargeable to anyone who, on 1st January of the year of taxation, has available to him or her taxable premises in the municipality, irrespective of his or her status (owner, tenant, free occupier).

 

The tax is based on the land register rental value of housing premises determined by surveys of developed land, updated by the authorities. For housing premises used as the taxable persons' main home, this rental value is subject to compulsory reliefs for dependants or to optional reliefs.

 

The amount of the tax is obtained by multiplying the assessment basis by the rate voted for by each relevant territorial authority for the year concerned.

 

Modest persons, as defined by law, may qualify for an exemption or an automatic relief, wholly or partly, from residence tax on their main home.

 

Similarly, under certain conditions, the residence tax is capped depending on the income.

 

In 2002, the revenue amounted to € 11.44 billion. In 2003, it amounted to € 12.12 billion

 

[BJSLIV]

 € 12.12 billion

Is that per property?

 

[goose]

We're in the same position as the person who sent on the original post. When assesing costs of our house to be (in 46) we were told that the current owners don't pay tax habitation because it is a maison secondaire and that we will be in the same position. Further, we have been told that if we were to be here long enough to change to a maison principal then our tax habitation would be based on our income amongst other things.

Is it possible that all regions do this in a slightly different manner?

rgds, Goose.

[Teamedup]

I don't know who told you this, but maison secondaire can end up paying more. We get allowances on our primary residences which are not included for secondary ones.

I don't know how someone wasn't paying if it were a maison secondaire. With very specific exceptions we all have to pay our local taxes. In some regions they would appear to be very low and the rest go up from there to very expensive.

[goose]

Well, originally it was an immobilier and I suppose that if I said in England that "an estate agent told me" then everybody would laugh but it was reading through this thread that made me realise that everybody seems to think this is different.

I used immobiliers in 24 and 46 as we were searching on the borders. They were both categoric in what they said and they were both different. In 24 they said its absolutely a fixed fee and it relates to the price or value of the property but in 46 they said it was income related BUT only payable if your were resident. The taxes are very cheap compared to the UK were we pay a fee in the 000s and get bug5er all for it so I'm quite happy to pay it!

Do you know how long you have to be in France to be thought of as resident? I've read that if you're in France for 183 days or more a year they draw you into the tax system....and again of course one's house becomes a maison pricipal....

[LesLauriers]

24 Hours!

If it is to be your principle residence.

[goose]

ha ha quite! no, secondaire,but I want to avoid being drawn into the principal/residency trap

[LesLauriers]

Then it's 183 days.

[goose]

Presumably thats per year rather than 183 days straight but do you know if its calendar/fiscal or rolling year? thanks.