deadbeat Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 Hello,Bear in mind that my comments concern UK and not France. I would be interested to hear about the French situation, I think the UK situation is as I have described below. If I am wrong please feel free to correct me. Mostly I would like to know are these things motor cars or not in the UK and or in France? I would also love to hear from anyone who has one and has had an accident in one or seen an accident involving one. I am sure they must cause many accidents. Thank God birds tend not to drive them or there would be carrnage..[8-)]I have seen very small cars on the Frenchroads, I am not sure what they are called but I guess most readers will knowwhat I mean. I have been trying to get some information about these cars andhave come across some very strange ideas about them. Maybe you people in here can help, you seem aclever bunch. These cars travel veryslowly and are very small and often have an old person at the helm. Thisperson, without exception, wears a hat, is in excess of 112 years of age andhas a Gauloises hanging from the side of his mouth.. Sorry bowtthe stereotyping but I figure if you have seen one you will know what Imean. I presume they alsoare very fuel efficient. Not the little old men... the cars. Does anyone have atechnical spec or some information on these? Just the engine size, fuel type,weight etc, and are these 'cars' road legal in the UK? I hardly expect them tobe allowed on motorways for example but maybe they are allowed on littlererroads.. and stuff...like. Are they even classified as ‘motor vehicles’ orare they MPVs? I have listened on a 'bloke in the pub' saying that; " ifone were to lose one's driving licence for the excessive imbibition offermented fruit one may continue to drive in of these amusing little things"... (He wasbetter spoken than what I am, an old soldier, spoke proper and all that). I am presuming he was talking out hisar+se... not to put too fine a point on it... Certainly his breath was so foulas he might as well have been. Could perhapshis confusion (and now my own) be derived from the fact that whilst one may be committingan offence by driving any motorised vehicle over the prescribed limit foralcohol (even when the vehicle in question does not require one to be licensed,such as an MPV) one may ONLY be banned from driving 'motorvehicles' requiring a driving licence. The reason? Well a ‘driving ban’ is not actually a ban. It is the temporary withdrawal of the rightto drive a vehicle, a right wich is the first place was granted by the state, so it is definitely the witdrawal of a privilage... As one does notrequire a licence to drive an MPV wich is not a 'motor vehicle' (providing it is driven inaccordance with the Law) one may not be banned from doing so. The question is of course: 'Is this "amusing" little cara motor vehicle, the driving of which requires a licence'? By the way, I am aware that one may bestopped from doing pretty much anything, including riding a bike but I amsticking to the drink driving rules.... if that are OK with the Pedants. Wherewas I..? So we say a person drunk in charge of an MPV which is not also a 'motor vehicle' on the public highway may well get a full driving ban in the UK. Is this also so in France? We also can say that to be caught drunk incharge of a normal motor vehicle on the highway in the UK will lead to a ban from drivingall vehicles requiring a licence (motor vehicles) and not all MPVs. Is this so in France?If, as I have been told but seriously doubt, it is legal to drive this little car withouta licence of any kind then certainly if anyone has lost their driving licence to drive a real carthey may drive one of these things. I guess... Probably... They may not howeverdrive one drunk in the belief that they will not lose their licence if caught. I think... I supppose I could have just asked: Arethese vehicles ‘motorised vehicles’ as defined in the Road Traffic Act 1988.AllRoad vehicles are MPVs but some MPVs are not motor vehicles. Some, such as ride-on-mowers are specificallyexcluded as being so by Section 189 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. This act and section 140 of the Road TrafficRegulation Act 1984 also provide that electrically assisted pedal cycles (which of course are MPVs) of suchclass as may be prescribed by regulations are not to be treated as motorvehicles for the purposes of those Acts. In spite of these specific exclusions people have still beenbanned from driving due to having been drunk in charge of both Wheel chairs andride-on-mowers (presumably not at the same time). Bear in mind, these things as specificallyexcluded as not being ‘motor vehicles’ by Section 189 RTA. For all other MPVswhich are not defined as motor vehicles and not specifically excluded thereseems little hope of escaping.MPV by the way stands for Motor Propelled Vehicle.Your comments woudl be welcome, I know you people know about this stuff and other stuff more cleverer than that un all.Armchairterrorist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 Very amusing[:)]If you dont actually already know they are called "voiture sans permit" "car without license" and can be driven (with some geographical restrictions" without having passed a test or after losing a license through amongst other things drunk driving.I think that you might be able to register them in the UK without passing an SVA test as they may be under the effective weight limit.My question is why would you want to?Myself I had a hankering to take one back to my workshop, fit a Suzuki Hyabusa engine and race it but sadly that was in my previous not current life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 No, as JR says above, you do not need a license to drive one (afaik). However, you do need to have your head examined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadbeat Posted April 18, 2008 Author Share Posted April 18, 2008 Thanks JRI really am amazed that this is so. I really did not know they were called that.. That is one part of my question. The next part, simply is this... Can being drunk in one lead to a ban from using one's normal car (as is so in the UK)? I know that with that converse the presumption is to the negative but I suspect many mistakenly believe that they can be drunk in charge of one and not suffer any penalty. This is quite different to being drunk in a normal car, getting ban and then driving sober in a 'voiture sans permit', which from what the second reply states does seem to be the case here.Ta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Framboise Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 Our 19 year old son thinks they are brilliant. Mind you, he wants to get one, raise it, wide alloy wheels, flame paint-job the lot!I have seen one driven (badly) by a little old lady. She pulled up outside the boulangerie leaving the engine running, only the thing didn't have a bonnet and sounded like a Hercules bomber-unsurprisingly nobody nicked it whilst she was in the shop.And for what they are these Ligier / Aixam things are very expensive too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadbeat Posted April 18, 2008 Author Share Posted April 18, 2008 [quote user="cooperlola"]No, as JR says above, you do not need a license to drive one (afaik). However, you do need to have your head examined.[/quote]Why do I need to have my head examined? I am sorry if I have caused any offence, I was just trying to be funny.ACT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 So was I - sorry, if it didn't come off! I took no offense whatsoever - I had a good giggle at your post.As in "anybody who wants to drive one of those things needs to have their heads examined.." (or wear a paper bag over them at least!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maricopa Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 And because you don't need a licence, they are VERY expensive to insure.[:'(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony F Dordogne Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 [quote user="deadbeat"]Thanks JRI really am amazed that this is so. I really did not know they were called that.. That is one part of my question. The next part, simply is this... Can being drunk in one lead to a ban from using one's normal car (as is so in the UK)? I know that with that converse the presumption is to the negative but I suspect many mistakenly believe that they can be drunk in charge of one and not suffer any penalty. This is quite different to being drunk in a normal car, getting ban and then driving sober in a 'voiture sans permit', which from what the second reply states does seem to be the case here.Ta[/quote]If you get busted for drunk driving in France you automatically loose your licence for 3 months, regardless of your country of origin. You can only get it returned after a medical, which includes a blood test, and then, if your a Brit, you surrender your UK licence and get issued a French licence.However, the Prefecteur can also put a stop on your getting your licence back and the Procureur can actually make a case for you NOT to be able to drive any vehicle at all, even a sans permis, if the original offence is serious enough. You can appeal (quickly and not expensive, has to go to Court) but the chances of the Judge overturning the Procureur are very slim.If you do get your licence back then buy a 'sans pernit' and get nicked again for dd, you usually get at least a two year ban and you have to go through an even more stringent medical examination to get your licence back.The G men that I know tell me that it's quite usual for people to be banned completely, I know of at least two locally who wouldn't even be able to get a 'sans permis'. In addition, for a conviction for dd, the insurance premium for the under 50cc car or bike is heavily loaded and can be as much as 3,000 euros and for a second conviction, can be even higher.As for the olds that chug along in them, many have decided to give up their more powerful cars because of their age and some may be disqualified from driving by reason of illness, the idea being that in rural areas they need some form of transport and that they are less likely to cause an accident in a low powered vehicle. Their accident rate is actually very low, I think most people appreciate them for what they are and give them a wide berth.Not like the kids on the hairdryers who seem to be getting killed and injured all over 24 at the moment!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 All of the local drunks around our way have those, or scooters, and all are menaces.Just to throw another cat among the pigeons, I understand that until quite recently it was possible to get banned for drunk driving in France but still be able to drive your (normal) car for 'essential purposes' including getting to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadbeat Posted April 18, 2008 Author Share Posted April 18, 2008 [quote user="Tony F Dordogne"] Their accident rate is actually very low, I think most people appreciate them for what they are and give them a wide berth.Not like the kids on the hairdryers who seem to be getting killed and injured all over 24 at the moment!!![/quote]Thanks, your info was very useful. As for the accident rate... I suspect that eventhough they are not in the accidents they get to see many!!Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 And let's not forget that there are over a million people driving "proper" cars illegally in France without a licence, so also without insurance. That's quite scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ams Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 http://http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=QmqpGZv0YT4 te future, more and more little cars. ams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Smith Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 Funny enough, on a main road at the weekend, doing 100kph (110 limit), we suddenly came across what looked like a van stopped in the overtaking lane. It turned out that a sans permis was overtaking a tractor. Tractor = 20kph, sans permis = 21kph. No kidding. It was an incredibly dangerous thing to do, as the road was effectively blocked for about a minute and fast traffic was arriving at the back of the queue all the time. When we got to overtake the sans permis the two guys inside were having a jolly good laugh at the chaos. Which may suggest why they were driving a sans permis in the first place...They are also driven by ladies of a certain size. We were blocked by one which had two women in it that were so big they had to put their arms out of the windows to light their cigarettes whilst talking on their phones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suein56 Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 [quote user="Dick Smith"]Tractor = 20kph, sans permis = 21kph. No kidding. It was an incredibly dangerous thing to do, as the road was effectively blocked for about a minute and fast traffic was arriving at the back of the queue all the time. [/quote]IMHO Illegal as well as dangerous as I didn't think sans permis were allowed on dual carriageways. Where I live the sans permis cannot even use our main road, which has a speed limit of 90 kph, as it is dualled for most of its length; they are obliged to use a tiny road which runs parallel to the dualled part of the main road.Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracteurtom Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 Have you seen the price of these things - 10,000 € + Incredible, you can buy a proper car for less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petra Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 ACT wrote: "Thank God birds tend not to drive them or there would be carrnage.." Nice!! No offense taken! :o)I see them a lot around here too, especially on a Sunday avo after the Sunday lunch get-togethers! I was behind one coming back from a day out and it was all over the shop, so I dared not overtake it; we were driving down a mountain...well at least I was driving, dunno what the car in front was doing. After 5 or so minutes, the person must've noticed me and so drove as much to the side as they could and stopped (well, it was going only a wee bit faster than motionless!!) and as I passed, there was an old man, clearly pisse* out of his skull trying to smile casually as I went by. There are more gendarmeries about on Sunday afternoons and evenings than any other time.I also saw a very sobre old 'bird' in one last week who looked like she ought to have been in bed, or having her last rites. She drove so dangerously...worse than the drunk! We were on a path and had to jump a wall, just in case!! OK, I exaggerated that bit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Coeur de Lion Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 When we had those high winds last month, I was driving down the road and this old lady was standing next to her little car which laying on its side in a ditch. She was a bit shaken and hurt her knees, but apart from that, she was ok. I gave her a lift into town to her sons house. But apparently, the wind blew her off the road. They can't be safe and are a bigger pain in the neck than caravans imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 Well I for one would like to applaud my new countries compassion in allowing the elderly, infirm, birds and convicted drink drivers to retain their liberty if not their pride!I also like the fact that you get two chances at drink driveing (in case you werent pissed enough the first time[:)]) and the sensible legislation thet prevents serious offenders from getting back on the road until they provide enough alcohol negative blood samples.In my opinion, joking apart, they have got the balance right considering how many elderly people live in isolated rural areas.PS I forgot to add allowing immigrants to change to a non age restricted French license when they reach 70 years of age.PPS I visited the chateau pierrefonds in the compiegne today (highly reccomended) outside was a voiture sans permit that I noticed had either rolled while driving in a crosswind or more probably rolled over by some pissed teenagers, my girlfriend did not believe me until I showed her the scratches on the lower door rubbing strips and on the upper door frame, that was te limit of the damage and would probably T-cut out. So they are more robust than they look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suze01 Posted April 19, 2008 Share Posted April 19, 2008 [quote user="pcwhizz"]Have you seen the price of these things - 10,000 € + Incredible, you can buy a proper car for less.[/quote]An acquaintance lost her licence last year due to drink driving, she couldn't understand why, she'd only had a couple of glasses of Champagne, wine with her meal and a digestive after. She bought a sans permis in a deal that the garage bought it back from her when her licence was reinstated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave21478 Posted April 19, 2008 Share Posted April 19, 2008 I wouldnt be surprised if you had to put your foot on the engine and pull a string to start them!I believe a lot are 2cylinder diesel engines and give huge MPG. I was at an expo in Albi a while back and one of the manufacturers had a stand there and they had a couple of quite sporty-looking things, including a convertible. Cooler than a scooter I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Framboise Posted April 19, 2008 Share Posted April 19, 2008 Even back in UK there are those Perodua things (Noddy cars) which are about the size of an egg box.Local yobs turned over one outside the elderly owners terrace house blocking him inside and as he had no rear access to the property he was effectively trapped indoors until the Police came and turned the car back over again. The old gent told the Police who had done it as he had seen them rocking it back and forth, but it was upended before he could get downstairs - needless to say the Police "could do nothing about it as there was no proof, no cctv etc etc............" Same old story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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