Alan Zoff Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 While I am on a roll, having received great advice elsewhere concerning the wall, I thought I would try for the floor now.It's a ground floor bathroom with shower and toilet, put in about 20 years ago. Floor is a hybrid construction - concrete base to about 3 inches below finished surface. Wooden rails have been screwed to the base and infilled with glass fibre insulation. Wooden board has then been nailed to the rails to make the floor and covered with laminate strips.I don't think it was too badly constructed but the sanitary ware has clearly leaked over a long period, particularly the shower cubicle. As a result, the wood flooring has rotted and there is a lot of soggy glass fibre and wet rails.My plan was to rip out the woodwork and glass fibre and just top up with more concrete and tile it. The original concrete was laid on a membrane so should not be damp problems from ground.However, Mrs Zoff has pointed out that the original floor was no doubt made that way to avoid having to stand on freezing cold tiles/concrete, particularly in our not so warm winters. She wants some insulation.Options (in addition to curing leaks, of course):1. Reconstruct it as it was, except for laminate. Not keen on this. Would prefer not to have wood floor in bathroom.2. Flood it with concrete and tile it with ceramic tiles as I had planned and be reminded for ever that this was not what she wanted.3. As 2, but use other types of covering with better thermal qualities. Any suggestions for those?4. Instead of using concrete to flood it, use some sort of resin, if there is a suitable product. Seems to me that a product which sets like a rubbery plastic would have the strength to do the job and would provide an insulation barrier. Is there such a thing available for small projects like this? Only need to fill 8 feet x 6 feet x 3 inches.As ever, all suggestions gratefully received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG MAC Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Remove old floor, tank screed with bitumastic paint, 40mm cellotex laid loose (Ie not screwed down, 18mm moisture resistant chipboard laid direct to cellotex (Good idea to have 5mm expansion gap round the edges and gun this is with low modulus silicone. Once sealant dry prime surface ready to receive a electric heating matrix (A LA Messrs Srewfix etc) making sure you don't put it where you are then going to drill or screw through! Run cabling out to desired locations for power and stats Apply ceramic tiles (Use wooden floor adhesive) and fasten skirtings or gun in joints in suitable sealant. Fit Sanitary ware. Make plumbing and electrical connections. Toasty , cheap, tidy......will that do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarksinfrance Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 Does this help?Klima UFH systemUse the insulation boards then the ufh, then can either lay a screed and tile, or just tile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Zoff Posted May 23, 2009 Author Share Posted May 23, 2009 Brilliant, Guys. (Well, I am assuming guys but best not get into that.)Another problem solved!Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shimble Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 not sure but the klima looks the same as the wedi i proposed in your other post and it comes in 40 and 50 mm thickness and you can tile direct on to it they also do it with the shower drain pre installed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave&Olive Posted May 24, 2009 Share Posted May 24, 2009 hi ok thought it would be the ideal situation for refractory cement !!! http://www.william-sinclair.co.uk/industrial/applications/building+construction/insulating_roof_and_floor_screeds_using_vermiculite Dave [geek] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Zoff Posted May 24, 2009 Author Share Posted May 24, 2009 I read the link. What exactly is an "air entraining admixture"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookery Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 [quote user="BIG MAC"]Remove old floor, tank screed with bitumastic paint, 40mm cellotex laid loose (Ie not screwed down, 18mm moisture resistant chipboard laid direct to cellotex (Good idea to have 5mm expansion gap round the edges and gun this is with low modulus silicone. Once sealant dry prime surface ready to receive a electric heating matrix (A LA Messrs Srewfix etc) making sure you don't put it where you are then going to drill or screw through! Run cabling out to desired locations for power and stats Apply ceramic tiles (Use wooden floor adhesive) and fasten skirtings or gun in joints in suitable sealant. Fit Sanitary ware. Make plumbing and electrical connections. Toasty , cheap, tidy......will that do?[/quote] So you're suggesting he fixes his ceramic tiles onto a heating mat onto a floating timber floor? The heating and cooling could cause more movement than the adhesive/grout can cope with. http://www.netweber.co.uk/tile-fixing/weber-products/problem-solutions/internal-floor/tiling-onto-floating-floors.htmlhttp://www.netweber.co.uk/tile-fixing/weber-products/problem-solutions/internal-floor/tiling-with-under-floor-heating-or-under-tile-warming.html#tab0 http://www.netweber.co.uk/tile-fixing/weber-products/problem-solutions/internal-floor/tiling-with-under-floor-heating-or-under-tile-warming.html#tab1I would do it thus:Prime slab. Fix insulation boards down with single part, cement based flexible adhesive. Lay heating mat or cables. Cover cables with latex levelling compound. Fix tiles with single part, cement based flexible adhesive. Finish with grout mixed with a grout admix. Make sure the initial warming up is done in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Zoff Posted May 25, 2009 Author Share Posted May 25, 2009 Thanks for the further suggestions.A Google search gave me the answer to my question about air entraining admixtures. Technical stuff at:http://www.precast.org/publications/mc/2005_mayjune/revealing_mixtures.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave&Olive Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 hi ok thats more "Air crete " as they call it , I was thinking more vermiculite concrete ... http://www.william-sinclair.co.uk/files/uploads/file/Industrial/VermiculiteV4_Leaflet.pdf Daveps you can get it in brico pro about 10 € a 100 ltr sack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Easy option: Flood with concrete then cover with 'warmer' covering either cork tiles or vinyl? or is that just being lazy?[:$] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre ZFP Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Not so much lazy as applying Occum's Razor. [geek]Underfloor heating would be great but you have to consider that it is quite expensive and will require a Sparky and suitable electrics to fit it.This may or may not be a problem for the OP (it would be for me) so nice cork tiles properly sealed sounds like a brilliant way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Zoff Posted May 28, 2009 Author Share Posted May 28, 2009 Decided on a hybrid solution, using the vermiculite mix as a base and - if Mrs Z happy with the design options - some suggested tiles which are warmer to the touch than ceramic. Looks like a fairly cheap and easy answer; not as warm as underfloor heating but should have done enough to avoid frost-bite.Thanks again for all the great responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG MAC Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 "So you're suggesting he fixes his ceramic tiles onto a heating mat onto a floating timber floor? The heating and cooling could cause more movement than the adhesive/grout can cope with"That I am, and of course cementitious adhesives hopeless in this application however Unibond and many others do dedicated adhesives for timber floors which perform well allowing a greater degree of flexion. Noted my mistake in that flooring should be cross-plated with ply however as OP going with screed solution no harm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Zoff Posted June 1, 2009 Author Share Posted June 1, 2009 I in fact switched back to something like your plan BigMac but without the heating mat and I had already opted for marine plywood rather than green chipboard, due to previous bad experience with the latter in a bathroom. I was told that the thermal improvement with vermicilite would be negligible for the thickness I can put above the existing concrete slab and the heat loss would just transfer through the binding agent.Don't know enough to challenge any of the advice but too late now. Already taken the plunge, as it were. The test will come next January/February.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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