photovoltaic panels - any thoughts

[GordonS]

Hi C of C and sorry if my post confused.

Let me be clear - I know only a little about the PV installation system in France and that is why I'm interested in finding out the facts from people who have had an installation done over there. That said, having done a thorough investigation of the tariff system and the technology in the UK I seem to know more than most installers in the UK. The UK followed France and Germany into the PV renewables arena and it seems reasonable to assume there will be similarities. I base my comments on that alone.

Specifically a DIY installation is not going to qualify for the Feed in tariff (FIT) because the installation needs to be done by an approved and registered installer. Presumably linked to EDF through the approval / registration process since EDF are the sole owner of the infrastructure to which a PV system will be linked.

If a 'rent-a-roof' company pays the capital cost of putting PV on your roof they will take the lucrative FIT, as I said before.

As I understand it, in France unlike the UK, there is a way that tax payers can get a 'subsidy' (setting off the installation cost against tax?) but whenever someone has mentioned the quoted cost of such an install it seems appreciably higher than the cost of the same system without the tax break. Leads me to believe its the contractor taking the benefit, not the householder. In the UK a 4kW system (installed) will be around €14-16k. The difference being, largely, the cost of different performing panels.

Anyway I'd love someone on here to make a posting based on solid experience of a bought outright system in France.

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Gardian"]

We're inundated with calls from people who are "Partenaires d'EDF". Depending on my state of grumpiness at that particular moment in time, I either say "****", "No thanks", or just put the phone down for 5 mins or so. As Mrs G says, these people on the other end of the phone are simply trying to earn a crust by getting leads, so I shouldn't be so nasty.[blink] The cynic in me says that the more people ringing, the less there is in it for me.

Back to the point: I wouldn't be disinterested in learning more about the pro's & con's, but what I'd really like is for somebody to mail out a seriously professional pack of literature. Just something that would give me a start on the possible cost / benefit situation here locally. Mega more expensive than cold calls though.

This whole field strikes me as being a bit like double-glazed windows 30 years ago: pubescent. 

[/quote]

 Discussed this with a friend only this week - apparently she met a fairly high up guy from EDF at a social 'do' and mentioned how she hated all those cold calls - his reply was that mostly they are not from EDF at all (he may have said never, but I'll check later)

[Quillan]

That's EXACTLY what the guy said who stayed with us. These companies have NOTHING to do with EDF. The only 'contact' they have with EDF is on your behalf in helping you fill in the forms to 'sell' your electricity back to EDF.

The other issue you should be aware of is that you MUST be tax resident in France to get any financial assistance and/or rebate.

[Quillan]

The thing about these systems and the way they are sold is that they often cloud over the real money saving ideas. People see these systems as a way of saving money and actually selling something thus making their electricity bills much smaller.

What you should do is look at the whole of you house/property and it's energy costs. Personally I would get one of these guys round with a thermal meter in the winter to see where you are loosing heat. You are paying for all this lost heat and what you loose off sets any gain you make with 'selling' your electricity. Most people get quit a shock when they see the results of such a survey.

Basically in the first instance you should put any spare money you have in to insulation and windows. Not just what the government advises but possibly double or even triple the amount of insulation they recommend and install at least double if not triple glazing. You want to have the least amount of heat escaping that you can get. You will find this dramatically reduces your total energy bill and only then should you consider generating your own electricity.

As I have mentioned once or twice before we have installed air heat pumps which reduce our energy consumption for heating the house by about 40% yet they cost significantly less (without any tax rebate etc) than installing these photovoltaic systems which, by the way, only typically generate 50% of your electricity needs. I have also spent a few thousand on insulation, adding twice as much in the loft space and multi layer insulation to the internal walls even though our house already has cavity walls with insulation. My energy bills per year have dramatically reduced. We use wood, paraffin and electricity to heat the house and our energy bill has reduced by two thirds overall (livable space is 173m2). Based on the last energy bills prior to all this work being done I have calculated that I will have paid off the capital and started to really save money after just under 5 years.

So before you go rushing off buying one of these systems take a long hard look at all your energy requirement and costs for heating and how well your house is insulated etc.

The best tip with the salesperson who will arrive if you have booked them is to ask for any figures in writing with a guarantee. I doubt very much if they will give you one and will come up with a list of reasons why they can't. The opposite also applies of course, if you don't get what they claim they can use the same said reasons. As somebody said these people are typically last years unemployed double glazing salesman (or women) and often don't really know anything about the product they are selling, they just know the 'pitch' lines.

[GordonS]

Some excellent points, well made, Quillan.

I would simply add that there will be a big difference between a full-time resident in France (which I imagine, Quillan, you are) and such as ourselves who spend lumps of time at our French property Spring, Summer and Autumn - NOT winter - as we're not French resident (yet).

In our case we have a large South facing roof which could (possibly) be earning good money from a Feed in Tariff all year round, whether we are there or not. I suspect there are many others in a similar position.

[Quillan]

[quote user="GordonS"]Some excellent points, well made, Quillan.

I would simply add that there will be a big difference between a full-time resident in France (which I imagine, Quillan, you are) and such as ourselves who spend lumps of time at our French property Spring, Summer and Autumn - NOT winter - as we're not French resident (yet).

In our case we have a large South facing roof which could (possibly) be earning good money from a Feed in Tariff all year round, whether we are there or not. I suspect there are many others in a similar position.
[/quote]

I which case there would be no point whatsoever in talking to these people until you are because your going to have to pay and it's going to be a lot, you will not be able to claim retrospectively (like try and claim the money back once your tax resident).

Also like with most things 'technical' the technology will improve and the price of the materials, like the panels themselves, will drop. For example the retail price per watt is around €1.60 at the moment yet the price (some say) should drop to around €0.90 over the next couple of years. The reason for this is the 'cells' or 'lines' in the panels are getting smaller so the panels are getting smaller. It's bit like HDD's for computers, they have always been around the same price but the capacity gets bigger, older drives then become cheaper (capacity is smaller than the current drives). So in the case of the panels you will pay the same for smaller panels in future but the current size ones will become a lot cheaper. The negative side is that the efficiency of the current panels reduces quite quickly but the newer ones will not as the technology gets better. There is a long way to go with this technology and it very much in an infant stage. Give it another 10 years and people will be getting six or even ten times the power from their much smaller installation than people installing now. It will also be roughly the same price but then where will the price per unit of electricity be in the same period? As I said think insulation before panels.

[Rob Roy]

We are full time residents and almost at the end of renovating this house (the second one we've done). OH has loaded the place with insulation using more than the local minimum requirements (in roof space, external and internal walls, between the floors) and all windows are double glazed (triple glazed would have been nice but beyond the budget). We have a large wood burner that belts out enough heat to circulate up the stairs and have electric heaters in the bedrooms, but never seem to use them. Our night time electricity is on a lower tariff which heats the water ballon and I usually only put the washing machine on at night . We are certainly not sold on the PV system yet, but will give the guy a chance to convince us.

Quillan, could you explain a little more about the heat pumps you have installed and what they do please?

[Quillan]

[quote user="Rob Roy"]

Quillan, could you explain a little more about the heat pumps you have installed and what they do please?

[/quote]

Basically the are reversible air conditioning units, the most efficient are called 'inverter'. You can see them at Brico Depot where I bought mine from. Watch out for the special offers, we paid 500 Euros each with fitting kit and pre-gassed pipe. Their like building Ikea stuff, once you have spend a few hours installing the first one you can do the rest for about an hour a unit. Mine give about 3.5kw of heat or cold for 1kw of electricity burned.

[Rob Roy]

Ah, I know what you mean now - sorry for being thick![:$]