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land grabbing farmers


Steve

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Patf is correct. We have been advised that as long as the farmer makes no payment of any kind nor no payment of any kind is made to the farmer for cutting grass for hay there is no problem. However, unfortunately if you accept some sort of payment you will be entering a legal agreement and the farmer will have rights.

I agree with what others have said about seeing a Notaire but having said that ours was not very informed about the very complicated agriculture laws. Perhaps you could try to have a discussion with the farmer and take Woolybanana's advice. Having said all of this, if you allow the young farmer to do the same and you accept some sort of payment you will be in the same situation, agreement or not. The law sees it as the farmer is cutting your grass and in return he takes the hay so it is a quid pro quo arrangement. Anything above that is entering into a different arrangement and is considered a bail and the farmer then has established rights over your land.

By the way, I agree with what others have said about John,  he made some stupid rude remarks on TF last week to a new poster. Why he feels the need to be so rude to newbies is beyond me, he appears to be a very bitter man.

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moderators

my last post has been takn off. i have many friends who are farmers and non off them are land grabbing. i also have many english friends who are money grabbing and they admit it. yet i can not start a thread money grabbing en.....

max

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I am not an expert and I also take exception to the title and use of landgrabbing, but in the interests of helping the OP, I suggest you do a search for "Bail Rural" - this will give a good insight into the extensive rights of farmers to use other peoples' land in France.
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[:(] Some friends of ours had a similar problem recently, and only discovered it when the farmer who had used it for 8 years died and his widow refused to give up the hay on the land and further explained they were receiving some agricultural grants from it, obviously while the english looked on it as a favour that can be rescinded; the french are more aware of rights and benefits created. When our friends went to see the notaire, his advice was immediately to avoid court and explained that our friends still owned the land but had an agreement with the farmer and his family which had a value to both sides and that they should consider what value our friends put on rescinding this agreement in a friendly and financial manner. In other words he said it would be cheaper enter into negotiations to find a value that was acceptable to the farmer for him to agree to formally cease the existing agreement through the notaire. A bitter pill to swallow at the time but one that no-one has subsequently improved on (2nd opinion taken). [Www]

[8-|] Read the directions, even if you don’t follow them.
Be careful whose advice you buy, but, be patient with those who supply it.

 

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[quote user="Russethouse"][quote user="max"]

as in england as soon as you let the same farmer use your land 2 years running he has a right to continue using it.

[/quote]

Do you have a reference for this max ?

[/quote]

It is not true unless the laws differ by region. We received a letter in writing from the Chambre D' Agriculture Dordogne, that if there is no payment by either party and the farmer is only cutting the fields to take the hay and basic maintenance on the fields, it is not possible that he could ever make a claim.

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[quote user="Steve"]

Thanks Derek

Maybe somebody will give some sensible feedback? I was dubious about buying at first but my wife loved it & the heart overcame the head. We live & learn, or perhaps not!

cheers

Steve

[/quote]

I thought I had Steve! Don't lump me in with John's reply, mine was not in the same tone I can assure you.  I understand exactly your concerns.

You said the farmer had/has rights to use your land.  I advised you visit the Notaire as the seller should have told you about this arrangement if it was legal.  The point about resources is not financial but time, I have 5 acres of meadow and am very glad that I have a tenant farmer who looks after the grass fences, hedges etc.  Who is to blame?  Well the Notaire to a point as he perhaps should have asked the question of the vendor, but ultimately if he was not made aware of any agreements by the vendor, then the vendor is to blame.

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[quote user="Russethouse"][quote user="max"]

as in england as soon as you let the same farmer use your land 2 years running he has a right to continue using it.

[/quote]

Do you have a reference for this max ?

[/quote]

When we were farming, we used to rent additional land, this land was always on the 11 months let for the reason that if you had it for 12 months it would constitute a permanent tenancy where tenants rights would kick in .

Not sure where the info would be but I expect a land agent could verify this

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hi steve

i have just read your post 18/01/08  8;37

it is i am afraid not you in france who choses (if you wish to have a tennant) who exploits your land. it is the dda, adasa, chambre of agri., fdsea any other unions in your area, plus the c.agricole. by the way my post about 6 years dose not apply if you wish to rent the land to someone else. only if you wish to take the land back in hand for you own use.

max

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well it seems my information has gone unwanted i will not bother in future. steve you call farmers land grabbing but you say you wish to change tennant because a young farmer offered to give you wood or somthing. then you said it was not about the money. sounds like you have nothing better to do than play god with pople livelyhoods.

max

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Well, I have just looked at Steves original post and that seems extremely harsh on the farmer - who after all had an agreement with the original owner - what seems a perfectly legal one.

Then there is Johns response, yes you could call it harsh but I read it as telling it as it is.

Then there is Patfs response stating that she was told to not let farmers use the land.

Come on, France is a different country to those comprising the UK. Do not expect things to be the same. Research before buying.

I have a whole bookshelf of books on buying etc in France. In these you will find the warnings about letting farmers use your land.

If you cannot do the research first then expect trouble.

Steve was aware of the farmer when buying and has subsequently giving him further rights. He should have asked about the implications before signing the Compris. The original owner was in the wrong but, if he is back in the UK are the French courts going to chase him.

Paul

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Paul - well said. I didn't actually say don't let farmers use your land, though this would be simpler. It's the acceptance of payment which makes a difference. Also using the same piece of land for several years. As Andy wrote, the creation of a Bail Rural is the topic to research. We had a friends sheep on our field for a while, then someone else's cows. And someone else cut and took the hay. But nothing consistent and nothing in writing. Rereading Steve's original post, he asks about the notaire's searches - that's not his job, he's only a tax collector as has been mentioned many times. It's up to the buyer to ask all the questions.
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I think it is the Notaires responsibility to find out if the property is free and clear of any rights. If there is an agreement or a sitting farmer the seller should have been questioned regarding this and the buyer should have been informed. Our Notaire had our farmer sign a waiver of any rights to the property as normal procedure, we didn't ask him to do this. The Notaire we used worked for both parties,  the seller as well as ourselves.

Our farmer started acting very strangely and doing things without our consent is the reason we had to investigate what rights he may have established over the three year period we owned the property and he cut the fields. Our farmer cuts our fields for hay approximately three times a year.

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Is it not the job of the Notaire, that as well as to collect the taxes/fees, to also make clear all issues that are relevant to the sale, so that  both parties are fully aware of the legal obligations & responsibilities, which apply regarding a property sale/purchase in France?

I have read that if you do not fully understand the issues in French, they will insist on an interpreter, so that the buyer is completely aware, and fully understands what they are signing.

Is this not the case? [8-)]

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In theory this is what happens, ebaynut, and  I could be wrong about it being completely the buyer's responsibilty to check things out. But even if you have a translation the terminology is often not clear as you are dealing with a different legal system, and you cannot "fully understand"  the implications. Just no comparison with english conveyancing.
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Is it the case that the Notaire will search these types of things out if specifically requested t by you, the buyer, but if you don't specifically ask then it's hit and miss.

If that is the case then it becomes a problem knowing what you do need to ask... typically, you don't know to ask what you don't know, if that makes sense!

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The OP, the buyer, if he still around,  knew there was a written agreement with the  farmer at the time of the sale and is now trying to change it,because the trems of that agreement have not been kept.  What that has to do with the rest of the posts particularly the one below is beyond me.  The OP must go back to the Nortaire and sort it out with him, there is nothing anybody on the Forum can do for him.
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