How to work out the price of citerne gas?

[nectarine]

We've bought a house with a Primagaz underground citerne installed and taken over the contract.  We have to rent the citerne and have a choice of a monthly rental €15 or a one-off fee of €700 for a 5-year contract.  I'm trying to establish how much the gas will actually cost, per litre.  I rang Primagaz who told me that we had a 2000 litre tank and they have sent me some papers to start the contract but thier price list is confusing as it states the price of gas per tonne!  How many litres in a tonne? 

They have highlighted, for me, a particular category  (de 0.601 a 1.5T) which I assume means our gas tank falls into this category, with a price of €1480 (inc taxes) per tonne.  Now I am probably never going to have only one tonne delivered in that exact measurement, and price so how does can I calculate how much per litre this will cost?

The tank guage shows me the percentage volume, not an actual amount.  I'm no mathematician (as you may have guessed) but I'd like to be able to work out how much the following would cost me:

          If I have a 2000 litre tank capacity which is 40% full, so I order 60% (i.e. 1200) litres at €1480 per tonne, what will this cost me?

In their letter to me they offer various delivery options: delivery on demand with a surchase or automatic delivery when they are passing, which is cheaper.  There is another option "avoir gas a la 1ere livraison pour 400 Euros HT" which I assume means that I can have the first delivery at a cheaper price, regardless of how much they put in?

If anyone can enlighten me I should be most grateful.  Happy New Year to you all.

[Kitty]

Nectarine

I don't have my papers with me as I'm away from home.  So I can't give you facts and figures.  When I get back home in a week's time, I'll be able to.

I had a similar problem when I bought my house although my gas tank wasn't underground.  I contacted several companies and tried to sort through the myriad of problems.  What I can say is that, if you have the capital, buying the tank outright and filling it up as and when you want is a much cheaper option than renting.  This took me a while to find out as the companies would only offer me the renting option at first.

The other thing that I was able to do was to agree a reduced rate of gas for 18 months.  At the end of the 18 months, I went through the exercise again, threatening to change companies and they extended my reduced rate.  It seems to me that the gas companies have a lot of margin that they can give away.

However, my tank is not underground and therefore presumably easier to threaten changing companies, helping my negotiating power?

By the way, I only have gas when I order because I have control over what is put in.  I also get a better rate if I have a larger delivery and so I run the tank down before re-ordering.

 

[Deimos]

I have a contract with PrimaGaz.  However, mine started several years ago and is different from the contract the previous owner had and thus it may be that their current offerings differ from mine.

As I understand it the conversion between weight (tonnes) and volume (litres) depends on temperature (which they measure when they make the delivery).

I had two contract options: "Automatic delivery" and "On-demand" deliveries.  With my contract the automatic delivery gives me a cheaper price for the gas than the "call them when you are ready" method - presumably as they can do a much more efficient route checking tanks.  I think my tank is half the size of yours (and it is above ground) and they hardly ever fill it up (not for the last 12 months anyway and it is still over 50% full) - and it is used for all central heating, all hot water and cooking (so my gas bills are pretty cheap for a nearly 300 sq m old single glazed property).

With my automatic delivery, when the guy visits he checks and if it "needs filling" and you are in asks you first.  If you are not in he makes the decision himself (and it is far from an "always fill" decision on the basis that mine has not been filled for over 12 months).

Remember that the tank need regular safety checks - every 3 or 5 years (I cannot remember which).  This involves somebody coming round, checking the condition, checking the various valves, the equipment against current norms, etc. and carrying out and maintenance.  Last time mine was checked he replaced the level gauge as there was some condensation under the plastic).  He then gives you a certificate.  As mine is rented from Primagas they do this (i.e. it is their responsibility as it is their tank - they have to remember, pay for it, etc.).

However, my contract was taken out 4 years ago so their offerings might have changed.

Ian

[BJSLIV]

The Monopolies and Mergers Commission carried out a study of the LPG market a few years ago and in their assumptions stated.

In terms of energy, one tonne of propane, an amount typical of that stored in a

domestic bulk tank, contains 1957 litres of liquid propane which provides enough

energy to run a typical boiler for up to half a year.

So it sounds like two full tanks a year should ,very roughly, cover your needs. Three fills of 60% of a tank full for about 3000Euros also sounds about right in terms of cost.

[ali-cat]

[quote user="Deimos"] I think my tank is half the size of yours (and it is above ground) and they hardly ever fill it up (not for the last 12 months anyway and it is still over 50% full) - and it is used for all central heating, all hot water and cooking (so my gas bills are pretty cheap for a nearly 300 sq m old single glazed property).

Ian[/quote]

That sounds like a very efficient bolier Ian.  When we moved into our house there was no timing system on the bolier - the previous owners said they just swithched the heat on an off when they needed it.  So we used one of those cheap timer sockets very succesfully for nearly a year with the only issue being a little heat and condensation on startup. We used 35% of the tank from March to November. When we had the bolier serviced recently they were horrified with the timer, told us to dispose of it and that the bolier should always be running even if not heating the radiators.  Since then we've kept it running but the consumption is way higher and internet sources suggest this is a very inefficient way to do it. 

Mis-advised?

Mr Cat

 

 

[Deimos]

Mine is quite a physically large boiler.  It heats the house and domestic hot water (plus gas for the hob for cooking).  It has a frost stat thingy so if it gets cold outside and the boiler is not already going then it switches itself on to a "protect yourself" mode.  I think it is a very sophisticated controller (loads of adjustments, etc.) and when the outside temperature causes a "protect yourself" it only runs at a far lower radiator water temperature.  Also a very good make (don't know if this makes a difference).

House has very thick walls and holds the heat well.  But definitely not had any gas for at least a year and still at over 50% full.  I was thinking about changing to oil but the gas is pretty cheap so no point really.

Ian

[Patf]

Nectarine - I don't know how you can change tonnes/kgs (weight) to litres (liquid measure.) We have gas supplied by Antargaz, in a buried tank of 1100 kg which was installed free. Price quoted for gas was 968.76 TTC per tonne a year ago. For the coming year 1161e per tonne. Plus 194.8 pa abonnement.  Cost for the past year, gas plus abonnements, 1660e TTC. After each delivery we get a statement from the deliveryman in percentage terms, then a bill soon after. eg 50% or 550 kg cost 550e. So 1e a kg. There seems to be a big variation in gas prices. We had an estimate from Totalgaz too and theirs was more expensive.

[nectarine]

Many thanks for your replies.  If one tonne is 1957 litres, as an earlier poster suggested, then my (inc. TVA) rate of €1480 per tonne works out at around 75 cents a litre ... is this cheap?  I don't know.  But I rang Primagaz today and spoke with one of their customer advisers who suggested that paying the €700 deposit, instead of a monthly rental, meant that if we sold the house or ended the contract after five years then the full amount would be refunded, therefore cheaper than €15 a month rental.  I am getting them to confirm that in writing, by the way!!

Also, automatic delivery sounds cheaper, that they come round about once a year and just fill you up, so there is no delivery charge.  The actual cost of the gas - if my calculations are right - at 75cents a litre isn't negotiable so I don't know if this is a good deal or not. 

But, all in, having just bought the house and having quite a bit of work to do, I guess I should sign the proferred contract and think about all this in a few years' time.  I should add that we have log burners in the house as well so some of the hard work of heating will be taken care of.

Our previous house had a Rayburn - a wonderful appliance!  Shove in a few logs and then let the house be heated, with sizzling hot water, while a lovely casserole simmers in the oven.  We're tempted to get another one.  Does anyone know of a Rayburn supplier/installer in dept. 47 or thereabouts?

Meanwhile thanks again for all your replies, and happy new year to you all !

[Ejc]

Hi,

We're looking into changing from an oil fired heating system to gas - and would need a tank etc. The rzeason we're looking is when we have the kitchen done we may install a gas fired range cooker that will also run central heating and the hot water. From your experience would this be a good option??

We're looking into something like a Rayburn so could stay with oil - but have heard the oil here in France is different to the UK, so a Rayburn may not run as well.......

 

 

[nectarine]

I can only give you the benefit of our experience with a solid-fuel burning Rayburn.  We would burn wood on it and get the benefit of central heating and hot water.  It was a Godsend on the occasions when there was any powercut, since you would still have hot water (we were once the only house in the hot water) but the rads still got hot even though the electric pump wasn't running.  I liked the fact that you could stick a couple of lumps of wood in and have all the benefits throughout the house - cooking, hot water, central heating.  We'd like to install one in our new house - it really makes a house feel like a home.  I guess a gas-fired one will give you consistency of temperature which is something that was often erratic with burning wood.

However, the downside.  Rayburns can get HOT and be temperamental.  Bad wood can affect the temperature and there is fair amount of fiddling with slides and wheels to get the right amount of air through if the wood you are burning isn't great stuff.  Cooking with a Rayburn is lovely, but don't ever expect to sit down to dinner on time as the food cooks at whatever temperature the Rayburn decides to give you.  We have had a three course Xmas dinner spread out over 6 hours, finally eating roast potatoes after the dessert!

I can't give you any advice about the quality of French oil, sorry.  But I'll look forward to reading other people's comments about this.

 

[Patf]

Ejc - we have a gas cistern and use gas for central heating, water heating and cooking. We had a Chapee boiler installed, but I think there are a few good ones and each plumber seems to have a franchise. We are satisfied with it but it seems expensive to run. The price of  gas has gone up a lot recently and will go up again. We have Antargaz and they installed a buried cistern free of charge. We pay monthly which they prefer. Someone quoted figures from UK which said that any household whose fuel bill is more than 10% of their income is "fuel poor". Ours is 14%, including gas electric and some wood.