MadameT Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Bonjour a tousI'm new on here; hope someone can advise.We have an apartment on the 2nd (top) floor of a small (2006) new-builddevelopment. There are 5 apartments in all (2 on the top floor, 3 on the firstfloor), all of which are holiday homes and not lived in full-time (the otherowners are all French; we are the only Brits). The entire ground floor area except for the stairwell/bin store etc isowned by the local Mairie, and is used for occasional exhibitions, displays,local club events etc. All the apartment owners and the Mairie belong to asyndic which manages the cleaning/maintenance/insurance etc for the building. We are on good terms with all ourco-proprietaires, although inevitably our interaction with most of them isfairly limited as our paths don’t cross all that often.The rear, south-west facing windowsof our apartment look onto a rear courtyard/parking/access area which belongsto shops/restaurants on the adjacent street. Above these commercial premises are several storeys of apartments whoserear windows also look out onto the courtyard.Two of the apartments on the first floor of our building have terraces whichalso face this courtyard.We have full-length sliding glass doors on the rear of our apartment, with avery small Juliet-type balcony outside, overlooking the much larger terrace ofthe flat below ours. This balcony (moreof a railing, really) is too small to be of any use and in fact is so narrowthat we can’t even stand on it to clean the outside of our glass doors. We would very much like to be able to replace this Juliet balcony/railingwith a slightly larger, actual surface-mounted/cantilevered balcony – not verybig, say, 1m x 2m max – both to access the exterior of our glass doors and(more importantly) to give us a small area to sit in the sun occasionally. Obviously we would then overlook the terrace below to a slightly greater extent,and also - laterally, and to a similarly small extent – the adjoining terraceon the first floor. Nothing would bevisible from the front/street aspect.So, really, I would like to know whether or not we would be allowed toconstruct such a balcony, and if so what agreements/permissions would need tobe obtained: obviously, from our immediate downstairs neighbours, and also,presumably, the agreement of the syndic as a whole. Would we also require planning/buildingconsent from the local authorities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardian Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Nobody has answered yet, so I will, but with the usual reply.Talk to the Mairie.Your very detailed thread describes a situation that probably doesn't fit any of the rules. Its too small to qualify for any of the planning regs, yet potentially injurious to your neighbours - though that never seems to be something that worries the authorities over here. Obviously, the engineering viability of what you are proposing would be of interest to all, not least yourselves.I'd start with the Mairie, but with some detailed plans of your proposal (ideally some kind of computer-graphic of before & after). It might cost you a few quid, but if you get a cautious green light, you could use that to consult with your co-residents who you are clearly considerate of.Nothing more to offer I'm afraid - someone else may well have more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroTrash Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 I feel sure you would have to put in an application to the mairie, as it would change the outside appearance of the building (even though you say nobody would see it) and also because of the privacy issue.Once you have put the application in I guess the rest will follow - if the neighbours need to be consulted the mairie will ensure that they are.I do just wonder though whether the reason your appartment was constructed with such a narrow balcony, was precisely for that reason, so that it doesn't significantly overlook the others. Otherwise why did the builder not build a full balcony to add value to the apartment. In which case, the chances of getting permission to alter it would not seem too good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 Welcome to the Forum. I hope you will find some help here.These are the regulations about getting a 'permis de construire' (In French, but you can do a Google translation, and anyway you are likely to need the vocabulary)I can't see your exact case in there, but it will give a feeling for the rules and process.http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F1986.xhtmlI would also be asking the syndic, since I am pretty sure you will need an agreement from that quarter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroTrash Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 Or alternativelyhttp://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F17578.xhtmlas it may be a déclaration préalable that is required Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadameT Posted May 29, 2013 Author Share Posted May 29, 2013 Many thanks - all very helpful advice. [:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprogster Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 My previous French property was a co-proprietaire and one of the things I learned is that you do not own the outside walls of your apartment or house or the land underneath as they are like the common areas owned by the co-proprietaire on behalf of all the owners.So your first port of call should be the Syndic to find out the rules for alterations to the outside of the building, which will probably be that consent is required from all the other owners, by way of a written confidential vote at a specially called EGM. If you get the other owners consent then it would be the Syndic on behalf of the co-proprietaire that has to apply for planning consent. You will also probably need the consent of the original architect as the apartments are new build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickP Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Sorry to bring a frivolous note to what is obviously a genuine question, but I seem to remember Del Boy trying to get permission to add an extension to his high rise flat in Peckham? Well he failed, and if Dell Boy couldn't talk them in to it I wouldn't think you have any chance. Seriously I can't see any way that the building authorities would allow a one off balcony on a block of apartments, I may be wrong ( well I was once in 1966 about 4.30 on a Saturday afternoon) [:)] for your sake I hope I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loiseau Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Maybe the way forward would be to sound out the owner of the other flat on your floor, and see if they also want to do the same. At least that would be a balanced development under consuderation. (I am assuming the apartments are side by side, each with a window overlooking the first-floor terraces below.)Angela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickles Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 [quote user="Sprogster"]My previous French property was a co-proprietaire and one of the things I learned is that you do not own the outside walls of your apartment or house or the land underneath as they are like the common areas owned by the co-proprietaire on behalf of all the owners.So your first port of call should be the Syndic to find out the rules for alterations to the outside of the building, which will probably be that consent is required from all the other owners, by way of a written confidential vote at a specially called EGM. If you get the other owners consent then it would be the Syndic on behalf of the co-proprietaire that has to apply for planning consent. You will also probably need the consent of the original architect as the apartments are new build.[/quote]I'm with Sprogster on this subject. Our flat is in copropriété and EVERYTHING is governed by the rules of the copropriété, a copy of which you should have been given when you purchased. In general, you do not own the outside of the building, and a change such as you are considering is actually quite a major issue. I would be VERY surprised if you did not need to get the matter voted on at either a normal AGM if you can wait that long or at a special EGM - at your cost. Just as an example, some changes require approval of 100% of the coproprietaires (not just those who turn up!) - so if just one holds out, you are scuppered. Our copropriété has pursued owners through the courts for doing "unauthorised" works (eg enclosure of a balcony with glass whilst removing the existing glass between the balcony and the lounge, thus increasing the habitable size of the apartment). Other issues that have arisen include unauthorised window frame types used as replacements, colour of shutters or awnings, etc, etc. Your first port of call should be the Syndic, closely followed by a chat with the president of your Conseil Syndical. Even if you receive permission, it is very likely that any works would have to be approved by, and carried out under the supervision of, either the original architect or a replacement appointed by the Syndic.Do not underestimate the task that you are taking on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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