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A teacher decapitated


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France has become a very very dangerous place to live in. It gets worse every year. Yesterday's shocking event is just another 'shocking' event. You kinda get used to things things. It is true.

There will be another next week or the week after. If you no what I mean.

The Dordogne's won't get that. Nor will the 'place in sun's' desperately escaping Brexit. They should read the news.

The repercussions of yesterdays event will be.....interesting. Especially for us with kids at school. But also politically.

Where do we go from here ?
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If you said 'ex-pats' rather than "Dordogne's" I would be inclined to agree with  you.
There are plenty of places as dangerous and many more so than France, but few so deceptive towards  those who don't even try to scratch the surface.
Even  with such help as Google translate there are many people who don't read French newpapers, and whenever I post a thread about French issues it gets scant interest.

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You know what I mean Norman.

But you know, a line was drawn yesterday. Not just murdering but 'decapitating' a teacher outside a school. That is just.....I don't know. The norm now in France ?

I have kids in school. I have a 2 year old. What France is he going to grow up in ?

How would the UK react to a teacher being decapitated outside a school ?

So far I have just heard noise on the news in France.

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Maybe that teacher should have thought about what happened after Charlie Hebdo published insulting cartoons about Mahomet before he showed the cartoons to a class of Moslem kids. I don't think it was very clever, but he must have been aware of what he was doing - or really stupid.

There are many devout Moslems in France, not fanatics, who are really hurt and upset by such things, so it's not that remarkable that someone felt he was pushed a bit too far.

Maybe Catholic people here should consider their own country's attitude a few centuries ago when they sallied forth on the Crusades to kill every Moslem they could find, without the slightest provocation.

Yes, it was a long time ago, but believe me, that has not been forgotten................

I sometimes wonder what would happen if someone published cartoons of Christ engaged in some sort of pornographic activity. There are enough "religious" right wing nutters here and in other countries to produce a similar result.

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NormanH wrote

there are many people who don't read French newspapers, and whenever I post a thread about French issues it gets scant interest.

I subscribe to a local French newspaper and read it on line most days, as well as Le Monde feeds I get on my phone. It does surprise me when I try to discuss articles I have read with other French people in our residence how few of them read newspapers, on line or in paper.

Increasingly, older people tell me that the don't even watch much of the news now as it is so depressing. A spiral that the news services have put us in.

Could they correct it if they concentrated more on up beat stuff, or does that not sell newspapers?
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[quote user="Lori"]
I'm very interested Norman.  It is just that I find it hard to post about such horrible things.  What can I say?[/quote]
That's how I feel, Lori. Such a terrible, wanton thing - an action carried out based on misinformation and lies (from what I've read) but I can find nothing to say about it which is worth someone's time reading. As I've proved.

e2a: however, I do not feel that France is becoming more dangerous - at least, not in isolation. The world is becoming more randomly dangerous (iyswIm) and France has its problems but so does the UK, Germany, the Netherlands...

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People scared to say what they are thinking for fear of similar reprisals.

And afraid to say anything against religion in general due to the ridiculous bullet-proof protection given to it internationally.

Thousands of years of civilisation and so-called advancement but still dictated to by superstitious codswallop.
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I saw some of the original Charlie Hebdo cartoons. One showed a Muslim women praying in the mosque, her skirt was up at the back exposing her buttocks. Behind her, a man was leering at her naked backside.

I worked in an Islamic country for eight years, i had many conversations about religion with Muslims. I made it clear that I did not share their beliefs. But I never mocked their beliefs. What is the point of mocking and sneering at another person's religion? Because you have a right to do something doesn't mean you should exercise that right regardless. The irony is that laicité itself has become a religion in France, its believers as inflexible as the most fundamentalist Muslim or Christian. P.S. I don't believe in beheading people who disagree with me.
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How incredibly righteous of you.

The beliefs of Catholics (of which I am NOT one) have been mocked and mocked and mocked, again and again and again.

And they have learned to adjust to this with good humour and resilience.

The civilized world is doing no more than ask that the effing Isl*ms should learn the same degree of tolerance and accommodation.

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and a massacre or two....

I don't care which tooth fairy people wish to believe in, but their belief doesn't give them the right to kill or torture me. I have the right to  disagree and  the liberty to express that opinion,but as beliefs are deeply felt  I shouldn't mock them either.

I do agree  that laicity is in danger of becoming as fundamentalist as a belief system as  some  versions of religion.

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[quote user="NormanH"]
and a massacre or two....

I don't care which tooth fairy people wish to believe in, but their belief doesn't give them the right to kill or torture me. I have the right to  disagree and  the liberty to express that opinion,but as beliefs are deeply felt  I shouldn't mock them either.

I do agree  that laicity is in danger of becoming as fundamentalist as a belief system as  some  versions of religion.


Is it not!

Not to mention the invasions of "The Holy Land", euphemistically called "Crusades", which I mentioned earlier, when the poor gubbers being invaded had no idea what they were supposed to have done wrong.

Idiots - they were Christ-killers, of course.

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While in no way condoning what happened I have to ask myself what was the point of this lesson.

When I trained to be a teacher we were taught that the starting point for any lesson was to be able to clearly identify your aims. So what was the point of this lesson and how did he hope to achieve them by inviting the pupils it was perhaps particularly aimed at to leave the room ?

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Yes, but as  I said above
" I have the right to  disagree and  the liberty to express that

opinion, but as beliefs are deeply felt  I shouldn't mock them either."

I don't see the point of showing those particular images, even though the acts they have provoked have been so disproportionate.

It is perfectly possible to teach/talk about freedom of speech in other ways.

A problem in France now is that a whole section of the population who are still smarting from having been expelled from Algeria in 1962 are seizing on this to justify their gut hatred for the winning side in that conflict.

Here is the speech made by the Maire of Béziers (himself a 'pied noir' whose wife is a Catholic fundamentalist and our "élue" )

The battle for the Présidentielles 2022is well and truly underway!


"Mesdames, Messieurs,
Mes chers compatriotes,
Avant toute chose, je vous propose d’observer une minute de silence en mémoire de Samuel Paty et en soutien, en respect et en amitié pour sa famille et pour ses proches.
(Minute de silence)
La tête tranchée. Un professeur d’histoire a eu la tête tranchée, en France, en 2020, parce qu’il a fait son travail. Parce qu’il a expliqué à ses élèves ce qu’est la liberté d’expression. La tête tranchée par un islamiste tchétchène qui bénéficiait du statut de réfugié, c’est-à-dire de la protection de la France !
Stupéfaits, nous l’avons tous été, vous comme moi, devant cette nouvelle, devant ce mot terrible, une « décapitation », surgie à la une de l’actualité, vendredi dernier. Cela, à quelques kilomètres de Paris, l’horreur à la sortie des classes.
Vendredi dernier, nous avons franchi un nouveau cap, une plongée dans l’obscurantisme. Vendredi dernier, un enseignant est devenu un martyr de la France.
J’ai envie de vous dire que rien ne sera plus comme avant, que rien ne doit plus être comme avant. Que nous devons nous réveiller ! Qu’il est vital pour notre pays que nous nous réveillions. Mais, comme vous, j’ai un peu de mémoire. Comme vous, je me souviens qu’on a égorgé un prêtre dans son église et qu’alors, déjà, nous avions eu les mêmes mots, les mêmes indignations. Et puis, rien. Nous continuons à avancer, tels des somnambules, vers un précipice.
Aujourd’hui, en France, vivent sur notre sol des barbares, des monstres, les pires des ayatollahs. Des dizaines sont déjà passés à l’acte. D’autres poursuivront cette macabre entreprise, au nom d’Allah.
Depuis plus de 40 ans, nous sommes anesthésiés par l’aveuglement, les mensonges, les lâchetés. Sous nos yeux, des enfants sont massacrés à bout portant dans leur école parce que juifs. Des policiers sont attaqués à longueur d’année, deux d’entre eux suppliciés devant leur propre fils. Des journalistes sont exécutés pour avoir dessiné Mahomet. Des jeunes filles sont égorgées dans une gare. Des familles sont écrasées alors qu’elles assistaient au feu d’artifice du 14 juillet. Toute une jeunesse est fauchée pendant un concert de rock. Un gendarme décide de se sacrifier pour sauver ses prochains. Les meilleurs de nos militaires sont abattus aux confins des montagnes afghanes et au Sahel...
Des centaines de vies anéanties, des centaines de familles détruites. Des années d’horreur, de drames, de larmes.
Contre cet enfer, que fait notre pays ? Un carnaval de bougies, de peluches, de fleurs, de dessins, de belles et solennelles déclarations, de chartes de la laïcité et des « valeurs de la République » ânonnées jusqu’à l’étourdissement.
Face à cette pantomime hallucinée, ils sont des milliers à avoir d’ores et déjà déclaré la guerre à notre pays, à notre nation, à notre civilisation. Un État dans l’État ! Ils sont des centaines de milliers à dire qu’ils ne veulent pas de notre mode de vie. Arrêtons d’être étonnés. Il suffit de les écouter, de lire les enquêtes les concernant, de ne plus fermer les yeux sur leur menace grandissante : 74 % des Français musulmans de moins de 25 ans – les trois quarts - affirment placer l’islam avant la République ! Petit à petit, jour après jour, le totalitarisme islamiste impose sa loi, ses règles et ses interdits, jalousement protégés par ceux qui imposent, qui nous imposent… le vivre-ensemble. Vivre-ensemble, la tête séparée du corps ? Vivre-ensemble quand, déjà, 40 % des enseignants reconnaissent qu’ils s’autocensurent sur certains sujets face à leurs élèves. On n’a pas de mal à imaginer lesquels…
Tout cela, je le refuse. Je dis non. Je ne veux pas me soumettre !
Aujourd’hui, ici, j’accuse, oui j’accuse ceux qui, au nom de la tolérance, cèdent et lâchent sur tout : le voile islamique, les activités non-mixtes, les repas de substitution, les mosquées radicales.
J’accuse ceux qui, prétextant le risque de « diviser les Français » - commode alibi pour tous les renoncements -, refusent de prendre les mesures qui s’imposent.
J’accuse ces élites qui se compromettent avec le séparatisme qui infeste les rues de nos villes, les terrasses de nos cafés, les commerces communautaires.
J’accuse ceux qui disent « Je suis Charlie mais… ». Mais quoi ?
J’accuse ceux qui, sur les plateaux télé ou dans les partis politiques, refusent tout débat, toute discussion sur l’islam, sur l’immigration, sur le mode de vie et sur notre identité au nom du « pas d’amalgame ».
J’accuse ceux des musulmans de France qui excusent les terroristes ou qui refusent de condamner leur barbarie.
J’accuse ceux qui hurlent au racisme systémique et à l’islamophobie chaque fois que l’on fait mine de résister aux fatwas des fous de Dieu.
J’accuse ces élus collabos qui consentent à sacrifier la France, prêts à toutes les compromissions pour gagner quelques voix lors d’une élection.
J’accuse les lâches qui ferment les yeux devant l’évidence, qui refusent de dire la réalité et d’utiliser les bons mots, les vrais mots.
J’accuse tous ces politiciens et ces éditorialistes qui, depuis plus de 40 ans, se mentent et nous mentent.
J’accuse tous ceux qui choisissent la lâcheté et la soumission au détriment du courage et de la résistance.
J’accuse ceux qui laissent la France devenir un enfer, une terre de décapitation.
J’appelle nos dirigeants à ne rien céder sur la liberté d’expression. Sur cette liberté de la presse que, durant plus de 20 ans à la tête de Reporters sans frontières, j’ai défendue avec mes confrères en France comme partout dans le monde. Aujourd’hui, ces caricatures sont devenues l’étendard de nos libertés.
J’appelle nos dirigeants à stopper l’immigration de masse, véritable terreau de l’islamisme politique, à déclarer la guerre – la vraie – au salafisme, à expulser la totalité des imams radicaux, à interdire le voile dans l’ensemble de l’espace public.
Cette barbarie ne s’arrêtera pas. Il faut lui déclarer la guerre. Et on ne fait pas la guerre à coups de marches blanches et de pancartes. L’heure n’est plus à l’indignation, l’heure est au combat.
Vive la liberté d’expression ! Vive la liberté ! Vive la France combattante !"
Robert Ménard, maire de Béziers, Président de la l'Agglomération Béziers-Méditerranée
Hommage à Samuel Paty - Lundi 19 octobre 2020"

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I found that article most interesting Norman because it illustrated very well the difference between moslems in France who originated in North Africa and moslems in the UK who, until recently, originated in Pakistan.

I used to work in a school where over 40% of our pupils came from ethnic minority backgrounds and I feel that we were frequently let down by our political masters. Any suggestion that there were problems was met by with the accusation that all teachers were racist. This was in spite of the fact that the top performing group in our school was Sikh girls, closely followed by Sikh boys. When I contacted our political masters because one of our pupils was being sent ‘home’ for a forced marriage I was told that it was not the local authority’s policy to interfere in matters of cultural difference.

Both the UK and France need to do something about it. This does not mean as one of our former pupils wrote ‘cultural acceptance does not mean accepting the unacceptable’. I think it does mean that we have to discuss these issues very carefully and with respect and I still don’t see how one can even begin to do that if half the class is missing.

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Surely it is because in Islam certain subjects cannot be discussed, are set in stone. Any discussion or attempted discussion by an outsider, a kafeer is automatically seen as an attack. This is constantly reinforced by the elders, the mosque, the (secret) Koranic schools and by members of the community who we would call fanatics.

Check out the Spanish Inquisition, that famously open and elite!
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All fundamentalists cannot be reasoned with.  There are interesting debates throughout French tv on this very subject.

As expected nowadays, there are also debates on all the social networks.  Many have pointed out that the purpose of the illustrations was to provide a starting point for criticism and argument.

I have always been against silencing certain viewpoints.  I remember writing, at the time of the Irish "troubles", to the powers that be, to allow tv viewers and radio listeners to hear Jerry Adams' voice and not use actors.  Let whoever it is have their say and let us hear the totality of it, the voice, the writing the drawings.  What I loathe even more than these crackpots are the "authorities" who seem to think we are incapable of forming our own opinions. 

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Its the same problem with any group that has strong, fixed ideas. They cannot afford any deviation from their twisted beliefs as it would be the first crack in the wall that will eventually bring the whole false edifice down.

Most of these organisations are run to benefit men and to oppress women, they don't want that to change either.
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What a happy coincidence; just when I had read up on this thread last night, I found this a sentence from "France in the New Century" by John Ardagh:

The State promotes an integration which the public then obstructs, the public stresses cultural differences which the State refuses to recognise.

So there you have it in a nutshell.  This is not a problem that is going to go away.  Ardagh's book came out in 1999 and we have already been living in the "new century" for 20 years......same old, same old[6]

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Mint, I have yet to read that book, yes, it is on my bookshelves, but form my relatively limited I wil accept knowledge of the French, I agree wiht this. 

In the end, change is never liked, integration is never liked (lots of examples in history there), and fundamentalism in any form is an unacceptable way of trying to keep control, but which is never addressed for fear of reprisal. 

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