Hard Brexit - You WILL need a CDS

[mint]

No, Mogs, she didn't mention CdS[:)]

[NormanH]

They will have all existing rights as they do now BUT on condition that

that is reciprocated by the UK to all French citizens in their country.

I haven't much followed what has been said by the UK about EU citizens but I was  under the impression that their rights won't be exactly as now; in fact they will have to register for 'settled ' status which is not the case at the moment.

You do not currently need to apply for a document to prove you can live in the UK. If you’re an EU citizen you and your family will need to apply for ‘settled status’ to continue living here after June 2021

https://www.gov.uk/settled-status-eu-citizens-families

That seems rather the same as is required of us when we apply for a CdS

I am not sure if they will have to  show a certain level of income.

BUT  all this is what has been provisionally negotiated as part of a 'deal'. Don't confuse that with crashing out with no deal.

By  definition in the event of  a HARD Brexit all that goes out of the window and  we would be left in the situation described at the start of this thread.

[EuroTrash]

" very often it's a case of "can you produce X to this standard?" "Yes" "OK! Send us a sample" and once the sample is approved, life goes on. That's how trade generally works"

It's how trade used to work but I haven't worked in British industry for 20+ years and even then things were starting to change. It was starting to be more about bits of paper than ability to produce a product. Along the lines of: "We hold X Y and Z certifications which means that we can only use suppliers who hold XYZ certification". Could be environmental standards, quality standards, whatever. For instance a packaging supplier that holds environmental accreditation may not be able to use a manufacturer who doesn't have a piece of paper certifying that they use over a certain percentage of recycled paper in all their products. They might in fact use over that percentage but if they don't have the right piece of paper to certify it, that the packaging company can keep on file for audit purposes, then they can't use them.

If the packaging company needs an EU accreditation, a UK one may not be accepted as equivalent.

Back then, this focus on bits of paper and audits was a change that I found hard to accept, it radically changed a lot of jobs and it changed working practices and relationships. At the time I thought it was bonkers but looking back I guess it has raised standards and increased transparency. And, I don't see there ever being a going back to the old ways in the EU at least, it's more and more about audits and certification.

[nomoss]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]Back then, this focus on bits of paper and audits was a change that I found hard to accept, it radically changed a lot of jobs and it changed working practices and relationships. At the time I thought it was bonkers but looking back I guess it has raised standards and increased transparency. And, I don't see there ever being a going back to the old ways in the EU at least, it's more and more about audits and certification.[/quote]

I really couldn't be bothered to reply to the post you quote above, but when we imported resale goods into Spain from several other countries, in the early 1980's, the suppliers provided conformity certificates, (which no-one ever asked us to see), and which we had to keep for x years. These were necessary for Customs on entry. We paid a substantial amount in duties and agent's fees, which, of course, were passed on to our customers.

A couple of years later, after Spain joined the EU, most suppliers still provided the certificates, out of habit, but these were only necessary for goods from outside the EU, which still required clearance, which became more expensive, as the agents, and probably also Customs, had less work.

Maybe, after Brexit, the UK will return to the good old ways the majority of the British People want.

[Cathar Tours]

Norman - This is the document issued to British case workers on how to process EU citizens applying for settled status.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/736281/EU_Settlement_Scheme___Caseworker_guidance.pdf

Appendix A give a list of the type of documents required and the cost of the application is £65 for adults, less for children. Like you said it's not much different to applying for a CDS. One nice thing is you can tap in your NI number and it will do most of the work for you like tax returns etc.

PS. Can somebody sort out how this made the post so wide please.

[YCCMB]

Still totally baffled here. As I said earlier, totally understand the customs/duties/tariffs thingy.

Understand less the idea that company X produces product Y to EU standard Z and has done for years, and the day after Brexit, either

A) Nobody believes them any more, or

B) They suddenly decide to start producing a rubbish product just because they're somehow free from the shackles of the EU.

Sounds to me that there is more likely to be a lot of

C) "You've left the EU, so now we're going to make life as bloody complicated as possible for you. Notwithstanding the fact that your currency is now worth about the same as beads and trinkets, and buying from you makes sound economic sense for us, the saving is as nothing when set against the pleasure of making you suffer for leaving us"

[YCCMB]

By the way, spare a thought, if you can drag yourself from the funk of pre-Brexit panic about (almost) everything, for the forgotten tribes.

Whilst our attention is focused on the tit-for-tat of whether France will be kind to Brits in France and vice-versa, and the U.K., at least, has said it's all good and the systems are in place, the government website on applying for settled status reveals this hidden gem

"Rights for citizens of Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland are still being negotiated."

[EuroTrash]

"Understand less the idea that company X produces product Y to EU standard Z and has done for years, and the day after Brexit, either

A) Nobody believes them any more, or

B) They suddenly decide to start producing a rubbish product just because they're somehow free from the shackles of the EU. "

No, neither of the above.

You have to think about the audit process and accreditations.

In a lot of industries, accreditations are important. Basically the process is about keeping your files complete and up to date and ensuring that everything is done as per best practice according to whatever quality standards you have engaged to. So if one condition of the conditions is that you only use suppliers who have this or that accreditation, you have to comply. If they lose that accreditation you have to drop them. Usually there's an inhouse chappie whose job it is to identify any non-compliances and get them sorted. Every now and then an external auditor from the accrediting body arrives unannounced and if he finds non-compliances, it's bad news all round.

Companies take these things seriously these days. It's not just about bashing out a decent product and selling it any more, it's more extreme in some industries than others but you're a less credible player if you don't have a string of accreditations after your logo.

[YCCMB]

But that's my point. Under what rules do you lose accreditation? My limited and no doubt outdated experience of getting products, and even companies accredited, always went along the lines of submitting whatever-it-might-be for testing and approval, getting said approval, perhaps periodically having to undergo further scrutiny, but essentially just then ticking along, updating whatever it was as instructed by whoever oversaw these things.

What seems to be happening here is that we are saying that a product (whatever it may be) has been tested, approved, meets all the EU standards it needs to meet.....and the morning after Brexit the rest of the EU will find all that to be null and void. Why? Many suppliers outside the EU already manage to conform, supply relevant proof and be able to comfortably work with EU companies, jumping through whatever hoops are required. Im probably being terminally stupid, but, other than being treated differently by consumers of their products, all the proofs etc., should already be in place and UK suppliers should, if necessary, simply be able to supply documentation to prove they're compliant.

If they lose whatever accreditation....that won't be for non-compliance, it will be because it's removed from them. I don't see the grounds for this. Maybe over time, if there's a significant drift in the way things are made, but in the short term?

I'm heartened that it seems to be accepted that the UK is going to begin life after Brexit by having an almost immediate and certainly breakneck race to the bottom, in terms of what we produce, what we import and what we consume. I'm interested as to why everyone thinks this? Is it just the wishful thinking of people who didn't want Brexit to happen, but are happy to see it sink the UK in a sort of "serves you right" way from the safe havens of your homes abroad? I'm not sure that the large percentage of people who actually live here and didn't want Brexit are just going to roll over and let that happen, regardless of the short term outcome.

[nomoss]

That may be true if the organisation doing the accreditation is in the EU, or, if not in the EU, their competence continues to be recognised by the EU.

This seems to me to be comparable to the recognition of UK qualifications etc. after a hard Brexit, meaning a Brexit without any agreements on subjects such as those being discussed here.

If there are no agreements on recognition of such matters, then, by definition, they won't be recognised.

Of course, most people hope this will not happen, but that does not mean denying that it is possible.

[BritinBretagne]

It’s not the standard of the goods sold by Britain after Brexit that are likely to fall as their export markets will expect the same quality. The big change will be in the standard of goods sold in Britain if the market is opened up to cheap foodstuffs from the USA and cheap toys, electronic goods and the like from China and the Far East.

[Cathar Tours]

Betty I understand where you are coming from.

You can look at other none EU countries like in Asia for instance. They have to carry out the conformity tests themselves and then forward the results to the EU before they will issue a CE mark for the product. This could (but unlikely) leave this system open to abuse I agree.

There is an interesting bit on the EU website that states

"It is up to you to make sure your product meets all the EU legal requirements. If harmonised European standards exist for your product and you follow them in the production process, your product will be presumed to be in conformity with the requirements laid down in the relevant EU directives."

Source - https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/product/ce-mark/index_en.htm

Note the word "presumed".

There is also a reliance on the importer to ensure that the product they are importing meets EU standards. But then we have all at one time or another seen UK TV programs where they have intercepted fake goods which have CE marks on them but that's not the same as deliberately cutting corners so your product no longer meets EU standards.

There are EU recognised accreditation companies that test your product and stamp your paperwork which you then pass on the EU.

I guess the bottom line would be that if you export a lot of goods to the EU you would be rather stupid to drop the quality of your product to the point that in no longer conforms to their regulation.

One of the reasons so many drug manufactures moved to the UK was because the EU Medicines Agency is based in London but due to move to The Netherlands in 2019. New drugs created in the UK will have to be tested by them before they can be exported to the EU. The UK will create its own agency but that can't approve the drugs for use in the EU, only the EU agency can do that.

The thing about Brexit is it's like a massive ball of twine which is now starting to unravel. I don't think anyone, including the government, ever understood exactly was is involved which is basically everything we come across in daily life and beyond. Things we don't even think about yet take for granted. The petrol in your car, the machine you use to fill it up and how that machine is calibrated for example.

[andyh4]

Betty wrote:

But that's my point. Under what rules do you lose accreditation?

Put as simply as I can, by withdrawing your links with the accreditation body. - either directly or more likely by virtue of rules imposed by hard line Brexit Red Lines imposed by an inept government.

So for the nuclear industry, the accreditation body relies on the ECJ as the determining body in the case of dispute. The UK in withdrawing from the EU has stated that a red line is drawn by accepting the rule of the ECJ over British legislature. De Facto, the UK nuclear industry is no longer compliant with the European body and has by default withdrawn its membership* - and is no longer accredited.

Repeat with airlines, aircraft design and safety, railway coaches and locomotives, and 1001 other industries who rely on European standards.

[nomoss]

[quote user="andyh4"]Betty wrote:

But that's my point. Under what rules do you lose accreditation?

Put as simply as I can, by withdrawing your links with the accreditation body. - either directly or more likely by virtue of rules imposed by hard line Brexit Red Lines imposed by an inept government.

So for the nuclear industry, the accreditation body relies on the ECJ as the determining body in the case of dispute. The UK in withdrawing from the EU has stated that a red line is drawn by accepting the rule of the ECJ over British legislature. De Facto, the UK nuclear industry is no longer compliant with the European body and has by default withdrawn its membership* - and is no longer accredited.

Repeat with airlines, aircraft design and safety, railway coaches and locomotives, and 1001 other industries who rely on European standards.[/quote]

Sad, isn't it.

[andyh4]

Sad?

Not sure

I am leaning more towards criminally insane.

[nomoss]

Returning to the original subject of this thread.

The likelihood of a "Hard Brexit" seems to be becoming blithely accepted by more and more members of the UK government and general public, many of whom think it irrelevant, as may be summarised from some responses here.

If the UK leaves the EU without an agreement, whether or not my wife and I have a CDS will also become irrelevant, as we will probably no longer have any further health cover under our UK S1 certificates, nor get annual increases in our pensions, so we could no longer afford to live here.

There may be a possibility we could qualify for cover under PUMA, but I don't think this would happen overnight, nor that our income is enough. I'm considering cancelling our Mutuelle, which would be useless if we are not covered by the French system.

Our best hope in the case of a "Hard Brexit" seems to be to persuade the Spanish authorities that we qualify for S1's from Spain by virtue of our Spanish pensions, or even to return to Spain.

Goodness knows how we sell a house when everyone knows we have no choice.

British friends in Malaysia had a similar experience when the government there decreed, first that foreigners could not buy property, and shortly afterwards that they could no longer own  property, but I never expected similar in a civilised country.

[mazandcol]

The health situation is certainly our biggest concern. It was the EU-wide S1 health system that enabled 'average' pensioners (as opposed to very rich pensioners) to retire in Europe. Prior to that you needed to afford private health care. Of course it's entirely up to UK Government to say it will continue to honour S1 reciprocal payments throughout EU.

[Cathar Tours]

Your be safe with the S1 if there is a deal. It appears two out of the three sticking points have now been sorted now, UK military bases on Cyprus and Gibraltar. It leaves only NI to deal with and that stupid Foster woman. The UK is now in a situation where the tail is very much wagging the dog.

May is making a statement in the HoC today about what is agreed, possibly as a prelude to telling them she is about to make some form of deal over NI by either extending the leave date or whatever. I think this statement will be along the lines of this is all we have agreed and do you really want to throw it all away at this stage.

This talk of a leadership challenge is not good. You don't change General half way through a battle because it puts you back to the beginning and you lose a lot along the way. Seems to be the Johnson's, Davis's and Moggies of this world are more interested in their pollical careers than they are in the country and its people.

[nomoss]

[quote user="Cathar Tours"]Your be safe with the S1 if there is a deal.[/quote]

Thank you, but most of us know that.

But this thread is discussing a HARD BREXIT, which results from NO DEAL

[quote user="Cathar Tours"] May is making a statement in the HoC today about what is agreed [/quote]

May does not make meaningful statements. She just repeats old ones.

Also, in her own words "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed"

[quote user="Cathar Tours"] she is about to make some form of deal over NI by either extending the leave date or whatever.[/quote]

"Whatever" sums up her plans fairly well.

Delaying a decision does not constitute making a deal. It is called "kicking the can down the road", which has been the result of all her "decisions" to date.

[quote user="Cathar Tours"] Seems to be the Johnson's, Davis's and Moggies of this world are more interested in their pollical careers than they are in the country and its people.[/quote]

Can you name a significant number of current Members of any persuasion who are not?

[mazandcol]

Totally agree nomoss.

TM only took the job to further her career - nothing to do with best for the country!

[YCCMB]

Ha! How quickly we forget! Let's see.....the alternatives were?

Oh, that's right...Boris, Gove, and Andrea Leadsom. I'm discounting Fox and Crabb.

I'm not even sure May "took the job to further her career" as Leadsom withdrew.

[EuroTrash]

But it appears that up to "taking the job", TM had supported Remain.

Now, the only reason I can see for taking a job that goes against your principles/instincts/beliefs/gut feeling, is to further your career.

[YCCMB]

Well, perhaps there's also the perspective that letting an actual leave campaigner take the job would have meant an even worse outcome than the one in prospect. If such a thing is possible. Looking, even now, at the vultures (of all parties) waiting in the wings, whether to oust May or to force a general election, I'd be delighted if someone could point me towards a viable alternative.

[Cathar Tours]

Also, in her own words "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed"

Actually is was the EU or more to the point Barnier who said it first which was then repeated by Davis at a Brexit committee meeting and repeated yet again by May. Not an original thinking woman is May.

[EuroTrash]

"Looking, even now, at the vultures (of all parties) waiting in the wings, whether to oust May or to force a general election, I'd be delighted if someone could point me towards a viable alternative"

+1

And that's the whole problem isn't it. The quality of the UK's "leaders" at present is abysmal, there doesn't seem to be a single strong, principled, intelligent, clear-sighted politician amongst them. Just when the UK really needs a good leader.

In fact how many have any of those qualities.