DLA some movement

[dragonrouge]

I forgot something the Police the Bar Council and lots of others now have their own independent review bodies and if we believe what we are being told Parliament will do so as well. Again Solicitors have their own review body in Leamington.

So how please do we allow the DM to review their own decisions? If they are so sure of their position they have made a decision then stick by it and go to Tribunal otherwise you end up like the MP for Salford.

[Tony F Dordogne]

Aha, there is a wrinkle in this.  Dr Tony Wright MP has agreed with the Parliamentary Ombudsman to act on behalf of all UK citizens abroad who need to make a complaint via the Ombudsman.  He's Chairman of the Parliamentary Standards Committee I think, or something of that ilk.  So in fact he will take all complaints to the Ombudsman rather than having to go through individual MPs.

[stewdowney]

Hi DR

My thoughts are that the DM,s are sitting on our claims hoping to get some guidance on how to supersede decisions that have been lost at a tribunal before the ECJ (which they cannot do at the moment) or start us as a new claim from their date of entitlement without the 26/52 criteria. Which means we might get our benefits from after the ECJ and then have to go to a tribunal to get the backdated benefits from when they were stopped until they were restarted. But are they going to tell us this now or keep us waitingggggggggg.

Stew/Ellie

[Tony F Dordogne]

[quote user="PaysansG"]Aha... so we need to iron out that wrinkle [6][/quote]

No, he's one of the good guys, we need to submit complaints, get knocked back, push it up the chain and when we get no joy, he will co-ordinate all our complaints to the Ombudsman - he's on our side :) 

[barebackrider]

Hello Tony

Thank you for this, you have brought a breath of hope back to us. Please can you tell me how and when we start this?

bright blessings

BBR

[dragonrouge]

Every Govt depart must have a complaints procedure? Does Blackpool but even then it must be like a stick of rock long and hard to get your teeth into.

rdgs

[Tony F Dordogne]

[quote user="barebackrider"] Please can you tell me how and when we start this? [/quote]

I posted all the information on the campaign website http://dla-ecj.weebly.com/message-centre.html it's the last message on the first page.

But first the DWP ExpoTeam have to respond to the complaint, and then to terry Moran, he wot has people to spread his erroneous information for him

[ali-cat]

[quote user="dragonrouge"]NI do things somewhat differently to the mainland. Lots of things are devolved to NI including DLA and the like. Obviously I am Welsh and certain things are devolved to Wales but not DLA. I am not sure but is DLA and the like devolved to Scotland and is there evidence from Scotland on the same point? Obviously this information from NI is very useful in any Tribunal on the mainland for whilst it is not as easy 'They have it in NI why cannot I have it here in England' but it can be used simply that NI have interpreted the law differently so are Blackpool at fault in their interpretation? Or are things that different in NI? The law is the law wherever it falls.[/quote]

Since receiving my letter last week I can't help but wonder could there is any difference between Northern Ireland & the Mainland. Northern Ireland still falls under the UK Government Benefit guidelines and therefore all legislation should be the same.

That aside – I've also spent most of the weekend mulling over the working in my letter with reference to the wording that you must be receiving IB or a state pension (& not receiving any French benefits or working).  It's not a stipulation if you live in the UK so could it be to do with NI contributions?  In the UK you can receive DLA if you are working or on benefits – so you are either paying NI contributions or receiving credits for it. I fear that this could be another hurdle for anyone who is not receiving IB etc. and is appealing their decision.  I really hope it isn't going to be another problem, but it may be something to watch out for.

[Tony F Dordogne]

IB is one of the qualifying factors according to the DWP's web site.

[grecophile-2008]

As are credits towards Retirement pension. Judge Mesher in his decision CF/266/2007 ruled on the 28 January 2009 that getting N.I. credits or benefits which entitled the customers to a single benefit such as old age pension should also give entitlement to sickness benefit. DR please can you confirm if my understanding is correct.

Paragraph 16 states ."The evidence was that, whether or not the claimant was awarded incapacity benefit for any period after he became incapable of work, he received "incapacity credits" from 4 July 2005 and was receiving income support in October 2006. Although such credits are often referred to as credited contributions, in accordance with section 22(5)(a) of the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 and regulation 8B of the Social Security (Credits) Regulation 1975, what the claimant would have been credited with on the ground of incapacity for workwere earnings at the lower earnings limit in force for the purpose of Class 1 contributions in each week of incapacity. Such credited earnings are relevant to qualification to some contributory benefits, including retirement pension"

Paragraph 17 states "The claimant has been compulsorily insured and continued to be insured for many branches of social security within the material scope of Regulation No 1408/71, in particular old age benefits. Then he can be identified as an employed person by virtue of the way that the British scheme is financed and administered, through his actual earnings related contributions as an employed person and his credited earnings."

If you ask for a copy of your file from the expo team you may find some inconsistencies between the DM's actual report and what you are sent by the expo team, and also evidence that the DM's do not read your submissions. I provided evidence that I.B. National Insurance credits continued to be paid by the UK until my husband reached retirement age last year -thus enhancing his pension. The DM's report of 17 April 2009 says my husband's care component failed "because they do not meet the conditions about past presence in Great Britain and they are unable to benefit from any of the provisions contained within EC regulation 1408/71. No grounds to revise. Supersession on error of law. 26/52 not satisfied on 02/09/2008" (the date I contacted them asking for reinstatement). 

In my humble opinion the DM's statement is incompatable with Judge Mesher's ruling.

[dragonrouge]

Yes I agree with your views on this. Politics with both a small and a big P are in being here of that I am certain.

All we are asking is for one Tribunal and then they will have to disclose their arguments and some days before the hearing so we will see what they have to say.

My problem is how to bring about a Tribunal? With Tina we have tried all sorts of ways including quoting an up to date Court of Appeal case and where the word used was immediate by a Judge in a lower court and speedily in the Court of Appeal.

We have written so many times to Kettle that I am now running out of ideas as to how to hit them and let us have a Tribunal.

Tina and I are also working on something else at this moment in time and I am sure she will post the information a bit later

today.

Be careful to go to the Ombudsman or the like you have to have exhausted the Complaints procedure within the DWP. So which way do you think a complaint is to go for if they investigate themselves we have no chance.

In one of the letters that Tina has received the guy (idiot) said they cannot intervene in a DM decision and the only appeal function is a Tribunal or other areas of the law. Exactly give us the Tribunal and I will give you the law and indeed perhaps even a Judicial Review. In my business sensible logical arguments are called for. I am now on the point of becoming hostile but that is not good for anyone. We have to keep our feet on the ground be sensible polite despite everything that is going on around us. I would not suggest you follow some of the rhetoric that I have seen from Spain it will not get you anywhere.

take care

[barebackrider]

Hello Tina

we did the same regarding DCPU customer services and the email was referred to and responded by Elizabeth Lewin. Guess what? She passed it on to Kettle! I then responded to that, and eventually got the letter from Paul Taylor. I sent an email to him (copied you in) and guess what again? Not even got an acknowledgement. Ivory towers come to mind......

blessings

BBR

[Hereford]

We hope you won't mind if a someone who is not affected comments on this thread.  We heard the report on "You and Yours" today (with a "Tina" - presumably the one who is referred to on this forum?).

We feel that you should avoid bringing the current value of the euro/pound into this as it weakens your argument (the MP did it too).  It is clearly a matter of law about the DLA and that is what your argument should be about - anything else confuses the issue and may produce a  negative reaction in some people - i.e. "they should have realised that the pound can go down as well as up - that is their problem"

Good luck anyway.

Mrs H

[dragonrouge]

Hi Hereford I did not hear the broadcast and thus cannot comment. However as a Lawyer I can tell you that I have used everything that I have in my power to argue Law with the DWP it has got us now where and essentially this is since 2007. I am now and through a practising Barrister colleague of mine trying to get a Judicial Review of the DWP and this on a pro bono basis for whilst I hear what you say money is a problem!

You will not appreciate and nor should you how frustrating all of this is.

[Clair]

Is this the programme?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00kwn4b/You_and_Yours_17_06_2009/

[Grecian]

I certainly do not want to kick anybody when they are down so to speak, but I think a read of the link I have provided from the yourable website makes for depressing reading. It would seem that even if anybody is sucessful in having their benefits reinstaed, they may well have them taken away in the future, from this oh so caring 'socialist' govenment we now have in power, and I guess by a future Tory govenment.

Very interesting read as to how the Irish care for their sick, and a complete contrast from the continual attack on the disabled, pursued by the British govenment.

Link: http://www.youreable.com/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=68627&tstart=0

[Tony F Dordogne]

Just to bump this up again.  The Campaign hasn't folded, just a great deal of work going on behind the scenes involving MPs, legal things and Parliamentary Committees plus ongoing pressure on the DWP/ExpoTeam to get their act together.  Just to assure those non-active people being effected by this.

[martin]

Following an email I sent end of May on behalf of my wife, I have just received this reply....

Unfortunately we are still not in a position to make a decision on your case due to the complexities involved.
 
The decision to remove entitlement to DLA was confirmed by an appeal Tribunal .The Secretary of State is not able to look again at Decisions made by Tribunals and we are investigating how this affects your request for re-instatement.

At least this is not an absolute rejection, but notice no indication of timescale is given. 

I believe that if we hadn't have appealed back in 2002 then the claim for reinstatement would have been rejected straight away, but as we did appeal we are now in this perverse situation.

It really would be good PR if the DWP not only replied more promptly, but gave some explanation - in this case, why isn't the S of S able to review decisions and what other options are open, like who can look again at decisions made by tribunals.

I do understand that bureaucracy is a slow creature and that legal issues are complicated, but I really would appreciate a fuller explanation and some idea of how much longer we must wait.........maybe we'll reach the two year mark since the EU ruling!

[Tony F Dordogne]

DR will correct me if I'm wrong here ..........

Martin, the refusal at appeal was based on the law as it was then, a law which has itself been held to be unlawful and which has been overturned by the ECJ decision.  Whilst what they are saying is true IF the law was sound, the law wasn't sound so the legal basis of the appeal tribunal's decision must be unsound.

However, I think you have valid grounds for going back at them at an Upper Tribunal for a review of that decision.

What date did you send to them and what date did you receive a reply please? We need detail to pass on to our other liaison MP (not Roger Gale this time) who is helping fast track complaints.  It doesn't have to be quoted personally, just he needs some specific detail.

[dragonrouge]

It is my birthday soon and no folks not giving away my age for I am feeling much older having seen lots from the DWP people who seriously are getting up my nose. If a someone erred in law be it a private individual a group a company of HMG and then one appealed and the Tribunal ruled against you and then the law was finally confirmed as being plain simple wrong then the Tribunal in my book cannot duplicate a wrong. Everything that flows from this should in my opinion be set aside. English Common law for centuries has always tried to put people back in the position they were before the wrong took place. Thus if someone moved say in 2001 or 2002 or whenever then in my opinion the law as it now stands should take the claimant back to that time.

I am trying to draft a document for the lawyers in London and my apologies for the slight delay but I have lots on at the moment and to think I am retired. However they say a lawyer always dies in harness. I hope not too soon!

rdgs

[barebackrider]

There is a lot of silent movement between campaigners, with private emails, phone calls and text messages; not everything can be laid bare on the site or big brother and little sister will know what the moles underground are doing!

Thank you Tony and DR (what date is your birthday?)

Reach out and touch......

BBR

[grecophile-2008]

Quite right BBR. The moles have been digging deep and the runs are connecting up. 

Thank goodness we have a very competent co-ordinator too.

                                     [:D]

[martin]

[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

What date did you send to them and what date did you receive a reply please? We need detail to pass on to our other liaison MP (not Roger Gale this time) who is helping fast track complaints.  It doesn't have to be quoted personally, just he needs some specific detail.

[/quote]

I sent an email to the Expo Team 30 May asking for a progress report.

Received an automated response/acknowledgement the same day, but had to wait until 26 June for the reply which I posted on the forum.

[Tony F Dordogne]

It will be interesting to see how long that takes to get back to the ECJ and whether the DWP/ExpoTeam designate any outstanding mobility element claims as in abayence as they are supposed to though they evidently 'forgot' to do so with the October 2007 case.  Let's wait to see just how long it takes them to get their heads round this one.

[dragonrouge]

The two Mesher cases involved appeals by Judge Mesher. I do not know the background in this case but certainly in the first case and where the claimant moved to Germany the Judge said something like 'The way is now open for the Secretary of State to go back to the date when the benefit was stopped and pay all the arrears' I wonder if they have done so. It is also my opinion that any outstanding cases should have been held in abeyance until the outcome of the 2007 case became known. I am currently working on another submission so we shall see.