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Taxe Fonciere --again!


Coral

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First, thanks to everyone who has responded to my past questions.

I bought a flat in June last year and duly paid the taxe f. last week. I did not have to pay last year.

In July this year I bought a house which will eventually become my retirement residence.

Yesterday I got an email from the agent saying that the seller was demanding that I pay the taxe F.

I responded that as payment is due in a couple of days I was willing to refund her the 160 days proportion of the year I will have owned the property, assuming that it had been included in the sales contract, if she would kindly pay by the due date.

Response this morning (13th!!!!) "Taxe fonciere is for next year 2005. You must pay!" Ehhhh???? I know tax offices are very quick to send bills but isn't this a little early?

I understood from everything I have read that this year's T.F. is on Jan to Dec 2004 - this year.

Is the agent right? Am I right? Am I being taken for a ride? What would you do? Comments please.

Coral - soon to be in Ariege - I hope!!!

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The truth is that unless you had signed you were under no obligation to pay for the taxe fonciere for this year. It is very very clearly marked on bill that it is the responsibility of the person who owned the property on the 1st of Jan, and you did not own that property then.

However, I know that people often pay for the number of days that rest for the year as you have said that you wil.

 

RE paying for 2005. This bill has not been issued yet. You will get it next year. So tell them to go and take a run and jump. Sounds like they are taking you for a fool.

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Bit early for me . . . I say stick to your guns.  The bill now is for 2004.  You pay in arrears here.  All you need pay is from the day you buy the house up until 31st December 2004.

They are 'avin a laff!  Unless someone knows differently?  In fact, thinking back, when I sold my last house in the middle of December I very magmanimously said they didn't need to pay me the centimes for their few days in the year owning the house!

I'll never be rich  . . .

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As far as I am aware Tax habitation is paid by whoever occupies the house on 1st January,paid by 15th November for that year.ie for 2004.Usually the seller pays this tax.Tax fonciere is paid by 15th Oct for that year.In respect of this tax it is normal (at least in Dept 16) for the buyer to pay a proportion of the years tax relating to how many days they have owned it.It is written into the compris de vente.  
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I deliberatly said it is written into the compris as it is standard practice in the Charente at least,probably in many other departments also Its just that many people do not realise that it is in the contract and that the notaire includes your portion of the tax  when he is working out what fees etc are due by you.
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Friends have recently moved and not a mention of these taxes in any of the things they signed. However, as everyone has been gentil, then the gentleman's agreement came into play. Their notaire did not do anything towards this.

I cannot understand why a notaire would even touch this either. The owner, locataire of a property knows that they have this liablitity for the year concerned, if they are in/own the property on the 1st of January.The rest is just up for negociation.

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This is what it says in my compris de vente

De payer les impots,contibutions,taxes,primes d,assurances a compter du jour de l'entree en jouissance

Il est precise que la taxe d,habitation si elle est due,incombe integralement a l,occupant du bien au 1er janvier de l,annee dont s;agit,et que la taxe fonciere sera repartie prorata temporis entre le vendeur et l,acquereur,ce dernier s,engageant a rembourser le vendeur de la quote part pour la periode courue du jour de l;entree en jouissance jusqu,au 31 Decembre suivant.

Notaire told me what my portion of the tax was to pay but it was included in the amount I handed over for the purchase

Why should it not be included in the compris and in the final act  It is after all a CONDITION OF SALE.

Maybe the notaires are more efficient in this part of the world  

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Notaire told me what my portion of the tax was to pay but it was included in the amount I handed over for the purchase.

It may have happend to you BAF but it is not what has happend to us in our purchases and sales. What happens if you buy, say in April, how does the Notaire know how much you will be laible for? and therefore how can he charge the known pro-rata rate ? 

When one signs a contract to sell (or buy) the pro-rata Taxe Fonciere clause (1/365 payable by each party, for every day in residence) would normally be expected to be an inclusion in the contract but in the sales we have been involved in, where the clause is included, it has been our problem collecting it from the purchasers and the same when we have bought, the onus has then been on the sellers to chase us up.

The important point being, is that both parties sign the contract and therefore the person who owes the TF is liable in law to pay the other person the pro-rata amount, so a notaire would not be required to collect the propertion owed to the other partry.

Well that is how it was explained to us, many years ago.

What would happens when one of the parties is leaving the country, I have no idea unless they  base the T.F on the previous year perhaps?

 

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Efficient? well they are obviously inefficient around here because they don't include it in the paperwork.

I would argue the point of condition of sale too. There is no liabilty with the purchaser at all.  And as Miki said, how can the notaire tell in advance what the bill would be if one purchased early in the year, the notaire couldn't........ but they could hang onto money in the mean time, which sounds very 'efficient' to me.

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A million thanks everybody!

I found a copy of the compromis and on Page 7 there was a sentence about impôts prorata. Copied it and sent an email to the agent 'politely' (very) telling her that she had been misinformed and my offer was according to contract.  so please send me an estimate along with a copy of the T.F. (in the circumstances I want to know what the estimate is based on!)

Also pointed out that the vendeur had been excessively slow in bringing it to notice. She must have had it 5-6 weeks so any penalty I would consider her problem.  Sound reasonable?

As the vendeur still lives in the area as do her four large sons (all celebataire - interesting - maybe gives an idea of her character   ) I thought that diplomacy would be best.  I do not want to have neighbour problems when I move in .

Let's hope I have got it sorted out.

Thanks

Coral - soon to be in Ariege - I hope

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Coral,

It is the vendeur who is liable to pay the taxe Fonciere and you as the buyer to rembourse her for the days you were in residence. It is not your obligation to initially pay the TF at the tresor public (we have always paid our bills for TF and TH at their offices but others have said they have paid at the hotel des Impots, might be a regional thing?). The TF will be in her name making her the one obliged to pay the facture.

I think they are trying it on as you are a "foreigner and should know no better !! Stick to your guns and ensure you pay her by cheque, so that you have a record and by the sound of her, a simple receipt outlining what the payment is for might well be a good thing.  

 
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Good advice Miki! Thanks.

I've made a note.  I have also sent an email to the notaire.   Told him of the situation and asked if he had retained anything for the tax and to please look into it.

If they think I'm stupid they can go and do the anatomically impossible   

Coral - soon to be in Ariege - I hope!

  







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On the 1st of Jan this year we were in rented accommodation and bought a property on the 15th April. This week we have had a letter from the previous owner, showing his copy tax Fonciere and asking for our part payment, as was written in the compris de vente. We also received this week our tax d'habitation for the property we were renting on the 1st Jan. This was all explained to us and in both rental and sale contracts. My understanding is that this is the norm.

Lollie
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