ANYONE HELP WITH OUR NIGHTMARE?

[grasscutters]

Hi

I have just joined this forum as my husband and I have a nightmare scenario.

We moved out to France from the UK permanently 6 months ago having found what we thought was our dream home in the Lot et Garonne. We moved with the aid of a UK based company who charged us a fairly hefty amount for the privilege of doing so.  We had been told that the plot next door was designated a Zone Artisanale, and this we had no problems with.

Imagine our despair when 6 weeks after moving in, large earthmovers started work within feet of our back boundary.  During the course of the next week, these banks rose over 20feet and totally obliterated our lovely view at the back of our property. We found out from the local Maire that this site had been taken by a large multinational consortium.  They will be running a concassage machine (stone breaking machine), plus a tar making plant.  This will obviously cause fumes and noise - how much we have yet to experience.

It would appear that this had been the subject of a public enquiry many months before we even viewed the property and indeed, the plans had been in the public domain for some time.  Unfortunately at the same meeting with the Maire we were told that the field in front of our property was designated an industrial zone, which again we had no knowledge of.

We have gone back to the UK based legal people we had employed to avoid just these type of pitfalls but as yet we have heard nothing.

Can anyone tell us if we have any legal recourse as we cannot see a way out of our problem.  We retired to France specifically for the quiet and rural life which is proving to be anything but. 

Many thanks

 

[Clair]

[quote]We moved with the aid of a UK based company who charged us a fairly

hefty amount for the privilege of doing so.  We had been told that the

plot next door was designated a Zone Artisanale[/quote]

I am not a lawyer...

Do you have this in writing?

If so, you may have ground to prove they didn't so their research...?

You might have to prove you specifically requested a "quiet and rural life" when you employed them to find you a property.

What do you hope to achieve at the end of this process? i.e. what is your best possible outcome and what would you be prepared to accept as a compromise?

[Cerise]

What did you expect a Zone Artisanale to be?  Artisans are tradesmen and to me that implies businesses of the noisy, messy sort with lorries, sawing machines etc and vehicles coming and going.  Hardly a peaceful environment..  If you were told it was a zone artisanale then perhaps they thought you knew what that meant.

I do sympathise if your dream has been shattered but if they told you what was going to be there then they can't be blamed if you didn't ask further questions.  As Claire  says, what resolution would you like?  Can you talk to the Mairie and see if some sort of landscaping/fencing would at least ease the problem?

[Russethouse]

 I suspect a language problem, in English, the word artisan has a somewhat different emphasis :

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?db=dictionary&q=artisan

Should the company concerned have pointed out the difference ? Was the property cheaper than similar properties nearby ? etc, etc........

[nectarine]

Is there any legal requirement for the notaire to disclose nearby planning works (like when you buy in England and the solicitor does a 'search').  Also, did the previous owner tell you about this, or do you think they were deliberately withholding this information?  I have no knowledge of French law but maybe there is a 'disclosure' requirement that was not complied with ...

Good luck.  What an awful scenario.  I hope that people can give you good advice on where to turn to get this resolved.

[grasscutters]

Firstly thanks so much for all your kind replies.

We were told that an artisanal site would comprise of small business ventures such as a bakery, grain store etc which would not be a problem.  The multinational company have taken over 30,000 sq metres of space and are certainly not what one would think of as artisanale.  This company operates all over the world and has vast sites right across France.

The Communates de Commune have listened to our problems and have very kindly agreed to plant hedge screening at the side of our property, but this will not be enough to screen the noise and fumes.  We are told that if the wind is blowing in the right direction (!) we should not smell too much but the stone crusher is probably our main fear.  This site will operate from 7am to 7pm for 5 days a week.  Currently one operation is up and running (which is a silent operation) but the bull dozer is noisy as he continually reverses.  We wake to this noise every weekday at 7am and if we wish to sit out in the garden or use the pool, we have to have a radio playing in order to drown this noise out, so heaven alone knows what the noise will be like when the site becomes fully operational. 

We feel in retrospect, that the previous owners of the property must have been aware of this development, hence their sale and subsequent return to the UK, although we cannot prove this. We certainly did not buy the property at a below market rate and could have brought a much cheaper property elsewhere, but we fell in love with the house and its (then) location.

Can it be true that property is brought in France without the need for anyone to look into large scale planning affecting land surrounding property?  Does the Notaire generally do this?  We were by the Notaire at signing that all searches came back clear and we took this to mean that neighbouring plots had been searched.  The UK company in their advertising also state that they search neighbouring plots. 

We would ultimately wish to move on, but how can we sell a house that is now blighted?  We have also tried to get a refund of the monies paid to the UK company, however they state that it is company policy that refunds are not made.  We thought that at least with this monies this would pay for the double glazing we will have to install in order to limit the noise and also for further screening at the rear of the property.

Thanks once again for all your kind comments.

 

 

 

 

 

[Clair]

[quote user="grasscutters"]Can it be true that property is brought in France without the need for anyone to look into large scale planning affecting land surrounding property?  Does the Notaire generally do this?  We were by the Notaire at signing that all searches came back clear and we took this to mean that neighbouring plots had been searched. [/quote]

Unlike a UK solicitor, a notaire is not mandated to act for the buyer (or the seller) but is employed by the state. His main responsibility is to collect the taxes due after the sale of the property.

As far as I am aware, searches done by the notaire involve ensuring that the property subject to the sale is actually owned by the persons selling it and ascertaining if there are any outstanding loans attached to it.

[mint]

Is the British Company you employed to help you a solicitor-type firm or a property-search firm?

I ask because we had a British solicitor to go over the finer details with us as we didn't know much of the buying process at that time.  Whilst he did help us formulate some clauses suspensives, etc. he also advised us to employ a surveyor (France based) to look at the local Development Plans and related stuff like that.

In the end, we didn't employer the second person because, between my OH and me, we managed to find out as much info as we needed, eg that the local lorry park did not affect us, that if sewage works were built it was unlikely to be in our vicinity and so on.

Admittedly, some of this research was only us driving around and walking round the area, talking to locals, visiting the mairie and generally working things out for ourselves.

You can't do your cause any harm by going back to the British firm, to begin with.  If they are solicitors and are affiliated to the Law Society, you might have some recourse.  If they are just a property company, then I don't quite know what, if anything, you can do with them.

I think, generally speaking and going by the experience of some friends to whom a comparative thing happened, you'd have little joy from the notaire.  The notaire looks at all the normal reports, etc. termites, asbestos, environmental factors (by which I think they only mean things like contaminated ground) and I believe I am right in saying that there their responsibility ends.

You are assumed to have looked at local planning and development plans yourself.

I do hope you manage to get whatever help you require to mitigate the effects of this industrial activity.  It must be very hard and I do sympathise enormously.

[grasscutters]

Thanks so much for your replies!

The UK based company has its own legal department with its own solicitor.  The reason we used them in the first place was that both my husband and I worked right up until the time of our departure from the UK and were not in a position to keep coming over to France.  We were assured that we had to do nothing as 'thats what you pay us to do'.  They promise a great deal and presumably most of the time this sort of thing does not happen.  We are also aware of another couple in our area who used the same company and have a similar situation.

The Maire is very supportive and obviously if we had been able to come over to France we would have checked ourselves but were told by the UK company this was unnecessary.  It is also interesting that none of our French Neighbours were aware of the site being built and were equally surprised at the scale of it.  I also know that the local villagers were concerned about the noise and fumes hence the fact these 20ft high banks have been built to try and minimise the problem.

I will check to see if the UK legal department is affiliated to the Law Society but I feel they must have public liability for this type of problem.

Kind regards

 

[mint]

Good Luck anyway, grasscutters.

[Russethouse]

 From what I have read on this forum (sometime in the past) I believe the type of searches you refer to are the responsibility of the buyer, how this breaks down between you personally and the company you employed is probably buried in the fine print of the contract you signed with them.

When you say you were told things, was this over the phone ? In which case I hope you have the persons name and a note of the time and date (the counsel of perfection! great in hindsight [:(] ) or in writing ? (better !)If you are satisfied that the company you used were at fault perhaps a chat with trading standards in the town where the company is located may help, at least to point you in the right direction.....

Good luck with it...

[P-D de Rouffignac]

First of all, I have every sympathy for the situation in which you find yourselves.

However, here is yet another lesson about the importance of checking and double-checking everything before your buy a French property. This means being literally on the ground, visiting the mairie, talking to neighbours etc. Unfortunately this cannot be satisfactorily done from a distance, either by a UK solicitor or a firm's 'legal department'. At best they have to rely on the paperwork that is presented to them, and this may on paper be totally in order. But as already stated, a 'zone artisanale' is exactly what it says, not necessarily how you imagine it in your worst nightmare, as has been shown in this case.

The notaire handling the sale has a duty of care to ensure that the sales transaction is legal but how far he/she goes beyond this can depend on your persistance in asking the right questions. Buyers of even very expensive properties often fail to take the simplest precautions - I found a report recently that 75 per cent of off-plan buyers don't even bother to physicallt visit the site of their proposed development, and rely on the salesman's assurances..........Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

Sorry this is of little personal comfort but I am writing this mainly for the benefit of other readers of this Forum, as these situations are largely preventable.

P-D de Rouffignac www.francemediterraneanproperty.com

[BJSLIV]

It seems to me that it is quite likely that the UK company did all that  you paid them to do.

Your problem is that you were told that you were buying next to a ZA, IE next to an industrial estate. You yourself say that you had no problem with this.

Even though you were still at work it would have been easy to check with the Mairie as to what kind of industries were going to be on the site.

One phone call would probably alerted you to the risk.

Did you ask the UK agent to make any checks as to the nature of the ZA occupants?

 

 

 

 

[dr orloff]

It doesn't help much but I have every sympathy with you.  I remember househunting too with a company that charged a large fee for the privilege.  I must say that I visited several offices and more often than not the property descriptions were flights of fancy to say the very least.

I really can't think who you are talking about, but here is an extract I've found from from the website of an unnamed company:

All reasonable care has been taken .......in the preparation of the property descriptions provided but their accuracy is not guaranteed by ................ Descriptions are given in good faith and as an opinion of the .......... Office in France, not as a representation or statement of fact. Any measurements provided are approximate. Potential conversions, extensions, or building work to the property would be subject to obtaining planning permission or building declaration consents and you are responsible for raising any such requirements with the .............Office during negotiations. It is your responsibility to visit the property and to satisfy yourself as to the accuracy of all the information provided by the........... Office in the property description. ..............will assist you to identify where you want to buy and will make appointments for you ............... These offices are independent businesses, trained by ..........., providing the branded ........... service under licence. Offices in France work as negotiators on behalf of local estate agents or are themselves estate agents.

I understand that an estate agent (or negotiator) has to take certain information about a property they are selling in good faith, but when there is clearly a major development I would hope that the agent cared enough about the impact upon the purchaser to do their homework. (although I'm not naive enough to believe that)

Clearly the mystery company above are distancing themselves from the french agents and the one you used might have a similar policy.  You're probably also relying on verbal representations.

So I suppose in your boots I would find out from a legal perspective if the verbal advice can be considered part of the property description, whether from a legal point of view the UK company (agent or whatever they can be called) can distance themselves from the french agent and what the duties of the french agent are in respect of description/advice given on a property. 

There are some excellent agents.  My brother-in law is a UK agent (not involved at all with french property) and I am friends with a British agent working in France who just so happens to have started out worked for a UK based operation but resigned because (well I won't go into that).  I will ask their advice although I rather think you've been hung out to dry. A sad tale. 

 

 

  

 

 

[grasscutters]

Dear Dr Orloff

Many thanks for taking the time to reply. I was very interested to read your views.  However the UK based company we used are not only a property search company , but also 'oversee the law work'. They actually state in their contract 'that the language and law team  will look for any evidence of planning permission notices on neighbouring land'. Also they state 'we will contact the Mairie and send a questionnaire on your behalf to check regarding this'.  Their whole branding is based on 'peace of mind'.

Obviously now they are backtracking and stating that they sent the questionnaire to the Mairie, but he never sent it back.  We have had sight of the fax showing the questionnaire was sent.  They say that the Maire is not duty bound to reply.  However we were not told this at the time of signing and therefore assumed that these questions had been answered to their satisfaction.

We were shown a cadastral at the time of signing the contract showing the field in front of us as being Non constructible but we now know this was 3 years out of date and had been changed to industrial use.  So we live with the sword of Damocles hanging over us - and all we wanted to do was to come to France for a stress free life?????!!!!

 

Thanks once again.  If you do speak to your friend we would be very interested to hear his opinion.

 

Kind regards

 

[nectarine]

dear grasscutter, I'm not a legal expert but if the company say that they contact the mairie and send a questionnaire, etc., then it is reasonable to assume that they have followed up the questionnaire and got the reply and satisfied themselves that they have checked all the boxes on their list of things to do for you.  And if they didn't get a reply, and didn't follow it up, then are they technically negligent in their duty and might you be able to have a case for reclaiming the fees that you have paid them (after all they didn't do all the job).

I wish I had a legal answer for you, and hope that someone else can find an angle in this where you can be seen to be in the right and pursue some kind of legal case.  Fingers crossed.  I wish you well, and hope this gets resolved in your favour.

[dr orloff]

From a website that I once happened across:

"********** has a guarantee to our clients in the form of a Professional Indemnity Policy. Should anything go wrong you can sue us."

By the way, for a tiny bit of cheer in the gloom.  Some former agents are said to have joined the *****edoffclub(www.*****.com)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Poppy]

Grasscutter, we had a similar experience years ago and knew we had the company on the hop but couldn't at the time identify why. We realised later that in correspondence we kept quoting 'not fit for purpose sold' and will always wonder if that was the key phrase.  I know it sounds very simplistic but perhaps you could write to them asking for a  refund on the basis that what they have provided does not fit the purpose sold  ie peace of mind.

[grasscutters]

Dear Poppy

Thank you for your reply which we found very interesting.  As the company concerned use the peace of mind phrase underpinned by 'we do what nobody else does for you' the phrase you used - not fit for purpose - rang lots of bells with us.  I think in the final contract it does state the phrase fit for purpose and enjoyment of property - this might very well be an important point.

Did you manage to move on?

Many thanks for your help.

[PaulT]

[quote user="grasscutters"]

We were assured that we had to do nothing as 'thats what you pay us to do'. 

[/quote]

Oh dear Grasscutter it would seem that they were correct with their statement, i.e. you pay them to do nothing.

I will admit if, as they reported to you, that there was a ZA at that moment I would have run a mile.

I do think that they have been negligent in, if they sent a questionnaire to the Mairie and a reply was not received that they had an obligation to tell you this - but why not check with the Mairie if it had been received (quite easy to fake things with current software) and if in fact they replied as you might get a different answer - they are now engaged in a desperate back covering exercise.

It sounds as though you need to catalogue the events with any evdience you have and consult a good UK based solicitor.

Best of luck.

[Tony F Dordogne]

Grasscutter, if your legal team in the UK are the xperts that they hold themselves out to be, they should have picked up on the fact that zoning - the designation in the carte communal  - changes fairly regularly when it's reviewed by the Department/Commune.  And, if they were worth their fee, surely their 'language department' could have 'phoned the Mairie concerned to check all this stuff out rather than giving themselves such an easy get out as the 'not duty bound' clause.

I'd also speak to the Notaire about the cadestral being out of date - I think he/she may have some responsibility here as they are supposed to do the searches and make sure that your paperwork is up to date.

But we can all stick our two cents worth in here and non of us, as far as I know, are allowed to practice law in France and 'definitive advice' here can be wrong - I think your best course of action is the Law Society against your company and your local Notaire.

[Poppy]

 Grasscutter,  Have sent you a pm.

We did have suitcase full of evidence against the company which is obviously vital. You might want to consult a solicitor to determine whether you have the basis for a claim and  what you can actually claim against. Although if your company are solicitors themselves then, as Tony F says, contact the Law Society.

[dragonrouge]

Hi I am in the law but not as in the Solicitor level.  Trying better to understand this scenario am I correct in saying that obviously the sale was handled here in France by a Notaire but for added security and safety you used a UK based 'organisation' to assist in the purchase?

Here we need to clarify is this so called organisation a firm of Solicitors thus with the Law Society or are they something else.  If a Solicitor then the first step (and you have to go down this route) is to make a formal complaint to the firm and if again Solicitors they must have a partner who handles complaints.  If subsequently you are not happy then you can go to the Law Society.

However if another organisation is it regulated or are they perhaps just someone who has advertised in one of the mags.  If so what do their terms of reference say?  If it is a non regulated organisation then the ordinary terms and conditions of contract apply.  They say they will do this you agree and you then pay a deposit and then a final figure.  Simplistic but that is essentially what contract law says.

Having again read your postings I am not sure if you did indeed deal with a UK based firm of Solicitors?

If I can help I will do so on a pro bono basis so just send me a pm.

 

regards

[dragonrouge]

I have also read the contractual terms as highlighted by Dr Orloff and the terms are so widely (in my opinion drafted) as being capable of a coach and horses being driven through them.

Like everything it depends upon the contract that you entered into.  Please remember that a defence of not reading the document is not a defence.

I am also with a number of contributors on the question of looking after yourself in France for it is not the UK and as in enquiries before contract and the like.  Leg work and more leg work is called for.

By way of an example there is the much debated THT line from Flaminville in the North of the Cotentin penisular going through the heart of the Manche.

Even today and with rock solid guarantees that the line would not be going anywhere near my proposed purchase then I would not buy in Normandie.  Maybe a step too far.

That is why I would say to anyone buying in the Manche to ask questions as to the THT for if you do not then you might suffer.

In this particular matter none of us really does know the terms of the contract that the contributor entered into or discussions which ensued so we cannot commit to a particular and definitive view,

[Russethouse]

We were told that an artisanal site would comprise of small business ventures such as a bakery, grain store etc which would not be a problem

Who told you this ?