Pumpkin Posted April 15, 2006 Share Posted April 15, 2006 Having just got up from the floor having received a tax bill for 5237 euros somebody please help me and tell me I'm not going to have to pay this!It is from tresor Public and 2277 is for the taxe locale d'equipement, 683 for taxe dep. pour le C.A.U.E and 2277 for taxe des espaces naturels sensibles.I have read in a book that TLE does not apply to renovation of an existing building or change of use ie a barn which is what we are in the process of doing.Anyone any ideas please!!This is a big bombshell obviously that is completely unexpected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted April 15, 2006 Share Posted April 15, 2006 I had thought that the change of use from a barn to a house meant that this had to be paid. You are not the only one who has got this unexpected bill. I remember suddenly finding myself short of breath when ours came. It literally took my breath away, I hadn't budged for it and as I had asked the people who built for us, the bank where we got our mortgage, and our notaire at least 10 times if there would be any bills that we didn't know about as we weren't french and they all said no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clair Posted April 15, 2006 Share Posted April 15, 2006 [quote]I have read in a book that TLE does not apply to renovation of anexisting building or change of use ie a barn which is what we are inthe process of doing.[/quote]That's not where you should get your reference regarding taxes... My first point of info would be the urbanisme/equipement government's website. It says the TLE is automatic if you live in a town of over 10k inhabitants or the decision is made by your Conseil Municipal. It is generated by the approval of your demande de permis de construire. More basic details (in French) here.It applies to the building, rebuilding or enlargement of all buildings. Automatic exemptions are made for buildings for social, public or religious use and other exemptions can be authorised by the same Conseil Municipal for buildings used for "social rental" or agricultural use.I cannot find any mention of exemption for change of use of agricultural building.Although this might not be as up-to-date, you'll find more basic detail (in French) here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Posted April 15, 2006 Author Share Posted April 15, 2006 Thanks for the replies. The property itself size wise has not changed or been rebuilt merely renovated albeit the barns attached to the house are being converted to living space. I appreciate the book is not the best place to take info from but it is written in 2004. I will need to enquire with the relevant authority and then rob a bank! Has anyone else who's renovated had to pay this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted April 15, 2006 Share Posted April 15, 2006 This is a standard tax for renovations. We've paid it on two renovatedproperties - around here at least it is levied over several years. TheDDE (I believe) are the responsible body for setting the rate and do sobased on the area being made habitable. I recall that the amount duewas advised at the same time that planning permission was granted and aform included that had to be returned once work was completed. Thecanton is the recipient of the cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelin79 Posted April 15, 2006 Share Posted April 15, 2006 You've just got up off the floor Pumpkin - well, so have I ! I've been following forums such as this and read many books on moving to France over several years and I'm sure that I've never seen a mention of this before. I had to double check that this thread hadn't been started 14 days previously.I am gob-smacked. This could be a life changing event for me but I suppose it's better to find out now than further down the track.Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted April 15, 2006 Share Posted April 15, 2006 It has been mentioned on here, in fact it was mentioned very recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Posted April 16, 2006 Author Share Posted April 16, 2006 Oh dear appears I'll have to pay then! Another book again! but I have also read that you can be eligible for exemption from the taxe Fonciere for the first 2-3 years if renovating, is this true? When does this bill come out? as I haven't had one yet. Perhaps if I didn't have to pay this it might go towards this bill!This now means my return to England for 12 months to work to fund the rest of the renovations will now be considerably longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted April 16, 2006 Share Posted April 16, 2006 It could well mean an excemption from Taxe Fonciere for a couple of years. This is what happened to us, but we had known that this was what happened with a new build, so weren't counting that into our plans anyway and it in no way covered the payment of this extra tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fulcrum Posted April 16, 2006 Share Posted April 16, 2006 [quote user="Teamedup"]It has been mentioned on here, in fact it was mentioned very recently. [/quote]Is there some kind of a Forum Sticky, that isavailable, that mentions this. It seems it should be up there in flashing redlights for anyone proposing to develop a property in France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted April 16, 2006 Share Posted April 16, 2006 I must confess that I am now confused have looked over on the other thread about budgeting. I thought that this was a sort of 'planning tax'. Is it? I thought that the espace verte tax was what has become to be known as the planning tax on here. We had, as far as I can remember to pay in two installments, but the first was more or less immediately, mais, it was a long time ago when we had ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted April 16, 2006 Share Posted April 16, 2006 [quote user="Teamedup"]I must confess that I am now confused havelooked over on the other thread about budgeting. I thought that thiswas a sort of 'planning tax'. Is it? I thought that the espaceverte tax was what has become to be known as the planning tax onhere. We had, as far as I can remember to pay in two installments, but thefirst was more or less immediately, mais, it was a long time ago whenwe had ours.[/quote]Ours was in three lots, the first (and largest) payment due one yearafter declared completion of the works. I dan't recall any exemptionfrom taxe foncière, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marie Posted April 16, 2006 Share Posted April 16, 2006 Ours was payable in 2 installments - the first about 6 months after completion and the second 12 months later. The cost was about €5000, payable in 50% chunks - not that it made it any easier to find the money, as no-one had told us anything about this tax. However, we were exempt from taxe foncière for 2 years. Given that the taxe foncière is only about €150, it isn't much to offset against the huge planning tax bill! Marie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamedup Posted April 16, 2006 Share Posted April 16, 2006 When we built the exemption from Taxe Fonciere was for new builds for a couple of years. AND if someone had taken a Pret PAP for a new build, then they had an excemption for 15 years from taxe fonciere. We looked into doing this, but a PAP loan was only for a percentage of the amount one needed to borrow, maybe about 80% and we would have had to have another loan for the difference and interest rates being as they were then, it just was not interesting for us to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Posted April 17, 2006 Author Share Posted April 17, 2006 As we all know with renovations to suddenly have a bill like this even if it can be paid in 2 installments over the next 2 years is an incredible drain on an already diminished budget. Having looked at the rear and explanatory notes it would appear that having been granted planning permission this kindly makes you eligible for this tax. It states you are eligible on construction, reconstruction and enlargement of buildings of all types. It doesn't however mention renovation. It seems a really mean and hefty tax half of which is levied by the commune when you have taken a derilict building and renovated it to the benefit of the commune to then have to give all this money. If you ask me they should be paying us the money! to help with the renovations! I think I need to try and plead my case but can only imagine I will still have to pay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJSLIV Posted April 17, 2006 Share Posted April 17, 2006 As I explained on the other post http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/660207/ShowPost.aspxYou don't pay the taxes on a renovation!. However if you are converting or extending them you will be liable.Its a well known set of taxes that always seem to come as a surprise!However I am a bit surprised by the size of Pumpkin's bill, as the rate of tax is usually pretty low. To be so high they must have a combination of maison secondaire and a fairly large property, or to be unfortunate to live in one of the relatively few areas that charge a higher rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owens88 Posted April 17, 2006 Share Posted April 17, 2006 So, it is not a renovation tax it is a 'change of use' tax ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkin Posted April 18, 2006 Author Share Posted April 18, 2006 Am I correct in thinking then that because the conversion of the barns is to habitable space to be used as my principle residence I am liable for this tax?I have a small house that is being renovated that has 2 barns attached to it that are being converted to habitable space. There will be access to the barns from the small house. If you convert a barn to a gite are you still liable? ( not that we will be doing as there are too many already!)Is there any way round this tax?!And to anyone else out there my advice for what it's worth DON'T BUY A BARN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJSLIV Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Any habitable space is liable to the tax. As for gites I expect that they would normally attract the higher rates applied to maisons secondaire!.Barns conversions have never been cheap. Thye can cost a similar or greater amount than new build. I would guess that at todays prices, all in, you need to allow £500 to £1000 per sq metre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just john Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 We have a small property for renovation and an attached barn which we intend to convert and include as part of the existing property. So, if when we apply and receive planning permis, then receive this tax demand, is there a time frame we need to complete the works in? or a period after which the tax becomes due whether or not the work is complete? Does anyone know what the position is if we start to use part of the accommodation whilst we are still working on the other parts of conversion or renovation?[:-))] sunscreen and something stronger required [:)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote user="BJSLIV"]As for gites I expect that they would normally attract the higher rates applied to maisons secondaire!.[/quote]It depends. If you are registered as a business then the rate isdiscounted. If the gîte is just some additional income then it would betreated as a maison secondaire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 [quote user="john and sue"]Wehave a small property for renovation and an attached barn which weintend to convert and include as part of the existing property. So, ifwhen we apply and receive planning permis, then receive this taxdemand, is there a time frame we need to complete the works in? or aperiod after which the tax becomes due whether or not the work iscomplete? Does anyone know what the position is if we startto use part of the accommodation whilst we are still working onthe other parts of conversion or renovation?[:-))] sunscreen and something stronger required [:)][/quote]As I recall, the permis is valid for two years and work should becommenced within that time. I don't think that there is any compulsionto complete the works in a prescribed time frame, but it is incumbantupon you to notify promptly once the work is complete. They check, andthe penalties are stiff. The tax is only due to be calculated once thework is complete. On your last point, I have no idea, I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJSLIV Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 It depends. If you are registered as a business then the rate is discounted. If the gîte is just some additional income then it would be treated as a maison secondaire.I'm not sure that is the case. The reduced rate specifically applies to maisons principales, "other" habitations , and even a maison principale larger than 170 sq metres will attract the higher penal rate.The payments are due 18 mths, and 36 mths after the permit is issued, irrespective of whether the work has been completed. We had to pay ours even though we couldn't use the house because the mains drains promised by the council were a year late. The only way you can avoid payment is if you can show that the work has not, and will no longer be starting within the two year period. Oh and they do check! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Riff-Raff Element Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 "It depends. If you are registered as abusiness then the rate is discounted. If the gîte is just someadditional income then it would be treated as a maison secondaire.I'm not sure that is the case. The reducedrate specifically applies to maisons principales, "other" habitations ,and even a maison principale larger than 170 sq metres will attract thehigher penal rate."Maybe it's a regional thing...the second barnwe did (180m2 habitable) was started and completed after we had beenfully badged up as a business, and this attracted a far lower rate oftax than the first, which was started whilst we were still UK resident.I can't check the full details because the file for that year liveswith our accountant...mind you, we do agree (I think) on two veryimportant aspects:1) You can't get out of paying it, and;2) They do check! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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