Form 2042 K - Service Pensions

[Scorpio]

I notice that a couple of posts have stated that Service, Civil Service pensions and the like are to be shown in Form 2042 K section 8 at TK.

They used to be shown against TI. The reason being that they were not taxable in France but they were taken into account when calculating the effective tax level. Has something changed?

 

[Ron Avery]

As far as I understood it,  TI is only for revenue not previously declared on the form and that revenue is to be taken into account in the calculation of tax in France, but it could be interprted as the level of tax in France.

 TK is the box for already taxed pensions covered by a taxation agreement.but as you say,  in the past people have been told to put "state" Civil Srvice pensions  in TI..  I don't have a state pension so it has not affecrted me, perhaps Suinday Driver can confirm his understanding of this.

[Sunday Driver]

Here is what the tax declaration states:

Persons domiciled in France with foreign income:

TI  - Income other that that declared in other sections, to be taken into account in the calculation of the effective rate of tax.

TL  - Foreign income subject to income tax in France and subject to CRDS.

TK - Foreign income taxable in France but subject to a tax credit equal to the corresponding amount of French tax.

I would interpret this to mean income subject to the dual taxation treaty (eg civil service pensions) goes in box TK.

But I could be wrong............[;-)]

[Ron Avery]

Scorpio is correct, the decriptions ae confusing but service/govt  pensions should be entered in Section 8 TI not TK, I checked with somebody who this applies to and who had their return checked by Les Impots today. 

[derf]

Quote from the French Tax Office English help forms:

Form 2047

352 : Income not taxable in respect of a double - tax agreement

Indicate under heading V11, income collected in UK and not taxable:

- which member of the fiscal household received the proceeds

- the nature of the income

- the gross proceeds

- if applicable, the amount of tax paid abroad

- expenses incurred

The net proceeds must be carried forward to form N0. 2042, page 4, Box TI

[Beryl]

Apologies if I am being very dim. But would rather be safe than sorry with my first tax return.

Understood the above which affects us.Can I ask for some clarification on these points please.

1.  Page 3 - Do we need to fill in the section "Pensions, retraites" etc also?
2. Page 2 Situations Particulieres at P and F , there is mention of pensions ( military or accident at work) for invalidity less than 40 percent , if we meet that criteria or is that for French pensions rather than foriegn ones?

Finally, though I requested the form for foriegn income (sorry forgotten it) they forgot to send us one, is it possible to download one?

 

[Maggie]

Hi - could you help please ... are the English help forms available on-line??  I've tried to find them, but without success ...

Many thanks

[Ron Avery]

Beryl

Page 3 -"Pensions, retraites" etc is for private pensions that are not taxed in the UK ( or should not be taxed in the UK) so if you have a civil service local authority pension that is taxed in the UK,  it does NOT go here.

Page 2 stuff I understand applies to French pensions and invalidity benefits. 

To be sure send an E mail to

 infotax-southwest@dgi.finances.gouv.fr

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="beryl"]

Apologies if I am being very dim. But would rather be safe than sorry with my first tax return.

Understood the above which affects us.Can I ask for some clarification on these points please.

1.  Page 3 - Do we need to fill in the section "Pensions, retraites" etc also?

2. Page 2 Situations Particulieres at P and F , there is mention of pensions ( military or accident at work) for invalidity less than 40 percent , if we meet that criteria or is that for French pensions rather than foriegn ones?

Finally, though I requested the form for foriegn income (sorry forgotten it) they forgot to send us one, is it possible to download one?

 

[/quote]

 

No you complete form 2047K and then transfer the result to TI on the main form If you have no other income that is the only part you complete and yes the form is available to download

[Beryl]

Thanks so much Ron and Boiling a Frog;

Its this sort of knowledge and kind help that is priceless and why I'd be lost without this forum!

 

[Scorpio]

Not wishing to confuse you Beryl, but I believe that if you also receive a UK state (old age!) pension (and have opted to have it taxed in France?) then this is included at section 1 of the Form 2047 K. As this form indicates this same amount is then to be transposed to the Form 2042 K – page 3 section 1 against Pensions etc. Mine is shown against AS.  I believe this to be correct, my initial form was completed by an accountant some 5 years ago and I have virtually copied it ever since.

[Beryl]

This is the infor I received back today.

For state pensions you have to fill in
form 2047 ( pink) heading VII
and then form 2042 heading 8 box TI

For private pensions   you have to fill in
form 2047 ( pink) heading 1  point "pensions"  and heading VIII
form 2042 ( blue) heading 1  point "pensions"  and heading  8 box TL
the amounts are declared without UK tax
For private pensions, if tax has  already been deducted under the PAYE system, you can reclaim the income tax.
You will have to complete form FD5   from the UK Inland revenue and send it to the tax inspector.

So rather than bother these good people again, can you work out where Civil Service pensions taxable in the UK go where? Is it definitely TL? If so they just want the net amount and not the gross? But they want to gross and net on 2047? [8-)]

Is it right I can claim the tax back, surely I have to pay it somewhere?
I was also told that the exchange rate for the year 2005 is :
1euro = 0,685300 pound
1 pound = 1,459214942 euro
DON'T SHOUT IT'S MY FIRST YEAR [blink]

[Ron Avery]

Beryl

Firstly lets clear up some myths from above.

You CANNOT opt to have your UK old age pension taxed in the UK or France, if you live in France it is taxed in France.  There are NO options.

You are getting confused by what you have been told by Madame Riboulet.   By state pensions she doesn't mean the UK old age pension, she means pensions paid by the state ie Civil Service type pensions, they go in box TI on form 2042 K  and they are the net figure.  They are not taxable again in France, but are used to calculate your tax status if you have other income, this figure is also used to calculate your health contributions if that is applicable.

I don't understand why you think you can claim the tax back on a civil service pension, unless of course the terminology that has been used by Mme Riboulet is confusing you, you can claim tax paid on private ( company) pensions in the UK, back from the UK, but they should not be taxed in the UK in the first place, so if you have paid UK tax, you can claim it back from the UK, that is what the Form she quotes is used for. Private, company pensions should be paid gross as they are taxable in France, but you have to complete a double tax imdemnity form first to claim back the tax from the UK, this Form has to be processed by your local tax office to make sure that you are declaring to the French the same amount that you re-claiming tax back on in the UK.  When this form has been processed you should receive all future private pension payments without UK tax deducted.

I hope this is now clear.

[Jonzjob]

[quote user="Derf"]

Quote from the French Tax Office English help forms:

[/quote]

Hi Derf,

There has been no reply to the question on obtaining the 'English help forms'.  Please could you let us know how to find them?  Thank you.

Frances.