Visiting the Tax Lady

[Gardian]

First of all, apologies if this particular question has already been covered: I've had a trawl through previous posts, but couldn't find anything.  Hoping that one of the tax experts out there like Ron or Phil might be able to help.

I've been a bit behind in getting my tax affairs sorted out over here and went to our local Hotel des Impots yesterday to throw myself on their mercy! The lady I saw (no appointment, 3 minute wait and a very cordial 10 minute chat) has given me a 2042 and 2047 to study and I'm going back tomorrow so that we can sort it all out. There's nothing particularly complicated and I've prepared everything today ready for our meeting.

My question is this.  My wife's retirement pension is from a local authority and I completely understand that this will continue to be taxed in the UK. However, will she count as an extra 'part' for French tax purposes, or will she effectively be disregarded as far as they are concerned, with me simply being taxed as a single 'part'?  I rather doubt my luck if we did get 'double allowance', but  thought it was worth asking.

Also, when our E106's run out at this year end and I go along to fight the good fight with our local CPAM, how will they assess her cotisations?  Will they take her proof of UK earnings (P60's etc) and convert them to arrive at a € figure, or is there some other formula?

Thanks in advance for any help. 

[Ron Avery]

"My wife's retirement pension is from a local authority and I completely understand that this will continue to be taxed in the UK. However, will she count as an extra 'part' for French tax purposes".

YES,  Tax is based on households, so you would receive 2 parts for allowances.

"When our E106's run out at this year end and I go along to fight the good fight with our local CPAM, how will they assess her cotisations? 

They won't asess her cotisations they will assess YOUR joint income.  Your wife's pension should be declared on the tax forms you have been given if she was in France before December 2005.  You can then present the Tax advice (bill) that you will have been given to CPAM without any need for P60s and your payments to the Health system for 2007 will be based on your 2006 tax return which was for income in 2005[8-)].  In lieu of a tax advice, they will normally ask for a signed attestation and take P60's etc as evidence.  If you do not have a tax advice by the time you go to CPAM (you must also get a letter from Newcastle to say that your E 106 is no longer valid, don't wait for it, ask them for it), you should get pay slips for January to December 2005 to calculate the pension total for CPAM purposes as the French tax year is the calender year,  or factor the pension to 12 months if it is the same amount each month.  The total will be converted to euros but check the rate they are using,  for 2005 about 1.42 should be used.  With any income that you have declared,  this will then arrive at your joint income on which your health care liability is based, you then pay in to the Health care system at a rate of I think of 8% of joint earnings over 9000€,  normally it will be a lot less than you paid in the UK for NI.

[Sunday Driver]

French tax affairs are based on the "tax family" and your wife will certainly qualify as an extra part.  That also means her UK local authority pension will need to be declared on your joint French tax forms.  Her pension won't be taxed again in France, but it will be taken into account in calculating your revenu fiscal de reference ("tax code") which is the base figure for other potential social security entitlements.

When your E106s run out, you probably won't have received your current French tax reference, so the CPAM will ask for separate proof of UK earnings - for both of you - and convert them to a euro figure using the official exchange rate.  Either way, it should be quite straightforward.  Finally, you only make one set of cotisations for the whole "tax" family.

Edit:  Ron beat me too it (as usual...[;-)]

[Gardian]

Ron & SD ..............

Thank you both very much for your prompt, detailed and explicit advice.

I'll be off to see the very luverly Mme Fernando tomorrow morning - I hope & suspect that this half of things will be the easier bit.  Will let you know how I get on.

The dodgier half is the dragons in CPAM at Nimes, who could kill a man at fifty paces with just one sideways look!  Our German (but practicing here in rural France) GP describes them in less than complimentary terms: the laws of libel prevent me from repeating her exact words.

Thanks again gents.

Ian

 

 

[Poppy]

Good luck with the tax and CPAM. Remember to take everything including cats birth certificate with you [:D]

Your tax lady sounds nicer than ours, she is called Mme A.SOL and I don't need to say more

[Sunday Driver]

No need to physically visit your CPAM in order to register.

Prior to the expiry of your E106, CPAM will ask you if you're going to renew it.  As this won't be possible, you just provide them with a copy of your original E106 issue letter (which says that when it expires you'll have to make your own arrangements for health cover) and CPAM will accept this as a "refusal" letter.

They will send you a questionnare to re-register for CMU at your own cost.  Fill it in and attach your existing attestation and carte vital, plus copies of your passport, utility bill, marriage certificate and an RIB.  For your proof of income, you'll need to attach a copy of your latest tax avis or failing that, a copy of your most recent tax declaration or copies of your payslips.

You can even take all the papers along to your local Centre communal d’action sociale (CCAS) - they'll help you fill in the questionnaire and make sure your dossier is complete.  They'll even put it in the post for you.....

 

 

[Gardian]

[quote user="Ian Horn"]

I'll be off to see the very luverly Mme Fernando tomorrow morning - I hope & suspect that this half of things will be the easier bit.  Will let you know how I get on.

[/quote]

Well, it couldn't have gone better!

I suppose it would be fair to say that I did have all the documents in good order and she was happy with the spreadsheet I'd done covering all the income elements.  She filled in the forms for me there and then, got me to sign them and gave me a copy to help with completing next year's.  She plugged the number in to her computer and told me the tax liability figure there and then - feuille to follow in a few weeks.  It goes without saying that you guys were spot on over the '2 parts' aspect and my liability is about half of my original 'back-of-a fag-packet' calculation.

She told me that if I went along to CPAM with my copy of the 2042, they should accept the number on there for cotisations purposes. 

The help and quality of service was exemplary (and to be fair, I have always found that with the Inland Revenue in the UK).  Poppy - certainly not a Mme A Sol !

Just as an aside, I saw my rogueish but charming neighbour this afternoon, who asked me if I'd had a good day.  "Yes, been to the Impots this morning."  He crossed himself, staggered slightly, and said that he hoped that I hadn't declared everything to them! (which I had).  Further confirmation to him that the British are mad.

p.s. Thanks for the additional info SD re the lack of need for a personal visit to CPAM, however we may well go down there in person.  The reason being that my wife has an ALD with an expensive prescription - we don't want to take any risks of not having our cover in place before the E106's run out. 

[Gardian]

[quote user="Ian Horn"]

The dodgier half is the dragons in CPAM at Nimes, who could kill a man at fifty paces with just one sideways look!  Our German (but practicing here in rural France) GP describes them in less than complimentary terms: the laws of libel prevent me from repeating her exact words.

[/quote]

Couldn't put it off any longer and armed with every piece of paper under the sun, we went to CPAM at Nimes to try to get things organised.

It started well: parked right outside the door, was directed to a lettered 'booth' and the dragon appeared immediately.  I explained the situation, showed her the E106 expiry letters from Newcastle and could she give me the form to complete in order to get our cotisations underway?

"Non" she said.  She needed either an updated E106 (but I said that we had no further entitlement to one), or a Carte Europeene (the old E111, but I said that the CE didn't apply to residents) or une lettre formulaire from Newcastle - the ones we had just wouldn't do.  There followed 15 mins of her practically banging the table with her fist and me doing a curled-up Basil Fawlty (I exaggerate just slightly, but not far off).  Fortunately there was a poster for CPAM Manche on the side of the booth advertising an English-speaking helpline.  Left the office with blood pressure significantly raised, not helped by a dose of Christmas shopping in the city.

Got home, rang Newcastle. Very helpful (as always), but no, there was no other type of 'end of E106' letter. Get her to ring us if there's a problem.  Fat chance of that, thought I.

Rang CPAM Manche at St Lo.  Charming woman, who couldn't understand what the dragon was talking about.  Said that she'd ring her, sort her out and get back to me in a day or two.

Happy days!  Although we're not there yet, I feel reasonably confident that St Lo are going to get this resolved.  If anybody else has a Securite Sociale problem that you can't fix yourself, you might want to try them - 0812 904212.    

[Cassis]

Oh dear.  Our E106s expire in January.  Should I start girding myself now? [:'(]

[Will]

There used to be at least one CPAM dragon on the St Lô helpline - I have come across her myself - but rumour has it they have been found other jobs in the organisation (probably dealing with Eastern Europeans) and the current staff are charming to a fault.

Why can't other CPAMs, and the impôts for that matter, offer similar services?

[Cassis]

Quite, Will.  I felt obliged to apologise for ringing the St Lô helpline the couple of times I had problems with the CPAM at Le Mans as we are obviously not in their area; yet they were totally charming and tried their best to help on both occasions. 

Chapeaux, CPAM St Lô!

[Ron Avery]

Ian

You are right, there is only one E 106 ending letter, but there is normally an English and French version of it sent to you from Newcastle and you give the French version to CPAM, perhaps that is what she was asking for[Www]

 If you have trouble next time, don't leave the office, get them to ring the English speaking CPAM help line and resolve the problem there and then, that is what others have done and the English help line are happy for this to happen as they have told this to a couple of friends who do not have good enough French to combat "technical" questions.

[hoverfrog]

as usual, it depends who you see and on your individual circumstances.

We're not married, don't have a PACS, so are treated as two entities for tax purposes not as one household.

I work, the OH doesn't, so he has to declare no earnings on separate forms to me and I get no allowances for keeping him.

[Gardian]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

 but there is normally an English and French version of it sent to you from Newcastle and you give the French version to CPAM, perhaps that is what she was asking for[Www]

 [/quote]

Ron ...........

I reckon that you've probably hit on it.  Fortunately, when I spoke to Newcastle yesterday, he said that he would re-issue the French version of the letters: perhaps he had a sneaking suspicion himself!

Ian  

[londoneye]

hi ron

i am confused as i thought you paid 8% of any earnings or savings interest to the health system, irrespective of the 9000 euros per couple allowance.  have i got this wrong ?   or is it just that you have to earn over 9000, but that this does not apply to savings interest.   i h ope this makes sense.

[Ron Avery]

You are confused, so am I[8-)],  I'm sorry but I have no idea what you are asking, why you are addressing it to me or what is has to do with getting into the French Health system after your E 106 expires.

 If you are asking the basis or earnings level for having to pay into the French health system and when you would pay social charges which are not the same thing, and have no relation to one another, try a search of the health topic, the ceilings, rates to pay and the difference between CPAM,  USRAAF and social charges paid on savings, income earned and otherwise have all been discussed and described in depth recently. 

[Sunday Driver]

Londoneye

For heathcare contributions, you pay 8% of your taxable income (after allowances) over a threshold of 7,000 euros.  Your taxable income (after allowances) is the amount shown as your revenu fiscale de reference on your tax avis.

Illustration:

Total taxable income from earnings, pensions, interest, investments, etc. = 20,000 euros

Amount you're taxed on (RFR) = 15,000 euros

Healthcare contributions = 15,000 - 7,000 x 8% = 640 euros.

The 9,000 euros threshold is the low income limit - if you earn less than that, you may qualify for exemption from healthcare contributions - and have your top-up paid for as well.

 

 

 

[Gardian]

[quote user="Gardian"][quote user="Ron Avery"]

 but there is normally an English and French version of it sent to you from Newcastle and you give the French version to CPAM, perhaps that is what she was asking for[Www]

 [/quote]

Ron ...........

I reckon that you've probably hit on it.  Fortunately, when I spoke to Newcastle yesterday, he said that he would re-issue the French version of the letters: perhaps he had a sneaking suspicion himself!

Ian  

[/quote]

Went down to Nimes CPAM this morning armed with the French language versions of the E106 expiry letters + every other document I could lay my hands on (incl the cats' vaccination certificates!)

Saw the same desk-banging lady as before, but she'd had a personality transplant since I saw her 6 wks ago. "That's all fine - now all you need to do is enrol for the CMU and one of my colleagues will look after that".  After a short wait, I duly saw her colleague who bundled everything up in 5 minutes flat, marked it all as 'urgent' and said that we'd have it all sorted out in a week or two.  As forecast, she was happy with the RFR written on my copy of the Declaration des Impots since the feuille hadn't turned up yet (it was in the postbox when I got home!)

I reckon that the 'change' was brought about, either by having the French language version of the letter (good idea for anybody to always ask Newcastle for that one), or the intervention of CPAM at St Lo (whose involvement was never mentioned this morning, but who I know had spoken to Nimes on a couple of occasions).  Most likely a bit of both.

Nearly there: thanks again to all for the advice.

[Gardian]

Hallelujah !!!!   Received our letter today telling us that we're finally enrolled under CMU.

It all took a bit longer than a couple of weeks though.  First, we got a letter back saying that the EDF bill that I'd left on 5th Jan wasn't recent enough - it was dated Sept '06 and since I pay by mthly D/D, I don't get a monthly bill.  Sent off loads of other Utility bills and that seemed to be OK, but ................additionally, I needed to provide my Avis d'Impots - a copy of my tax return was insufficient.  Unfortunately, this hadn't yet turned up.  Rang the Impots - "You should have it - it was printed 3 weeks ago.  I'll send you a copy".  Copy duly turned up 4 days later and off in the post it all went. 

Two weeks go by and et voila, today's letter.  All very exhausting, but I feel triumphant that we are finally, fully enrolled and embraced in to the tax and welfare regime. 

Still haven't got a Carte Vitale, but that'll turn up............................... eventually.

[Cassis]

Pah!  That's nothing!  It took us 6 months to get CPAM to take our E106! [:)]

Transferring to CMU when it ran out was a doddle by comparison. [:)]

Nice feeling to get it sorted, isn't it? [:)]

[Gardian]

Sure is Phil.

I always said that CPAM were a fine bunch (!!!![6])

Feel like sending the very lovely 'Brigitte' a belated bunch of Valentine's Day flowers.  Come to think of it, I won't bother.