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Goodbye RMI, CMU gratuit, ?????


BJSLIV

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I posted in a thread in the health section  mentioning that the French government has decided to clamp down on the perceived abuse of RMI, CMU, and child benefits by people from other EU countries arriving in France without income to support themselves. Its part of legislation currently going through Parliament.

Une troisième disposition opère la transposition en droit national de l'article 24 de la directive européenne relative aux droits des citoyens de l'Union européenne de circuler et de séjourner librement sur le territoire des États membres, qui autorise <les États d'accueil à ne pas accorder de droits à une prestation d'assistance sociale aux personnes entrées sur leur territoire> pour y chercher un emploi.

Le projet de loi applique cette mesure à trois types de prestations : le revenu minimum d'insertion, ou RMI, la couverture maladie universelle, ou CMU, et les prestations familiales. Il s'agit simplement d'éviter des mouvements de population liés à de seuls effets d'aubaine. Nos voisins ont d'ailleurs tous adopté des mesures similaires.

It made me wonder how they would achieve this objective.

Having done some searching around a variety of French and EU sites the solution is blindingly obvious.

Those of us who have been around for a while will remember the abolition of the old Cartes de Sejour. Well I think we can expect to see them returning.

Apparently the EU freedom of residence regulations ( l’article 24 de la directive européenne  2004/38 du 29 avril 2004)  allows one to live in a country for up to three months without formalities, but above that such things as residence pemits can be brought into play. One of the acceptable criteria for determining the issue of  a residence permit is to have means to support oneself. Which is then defined....

Resources are deemed sufficient when they are higher than the level of resources below which the host Member State may grant social assistance to its nationals or if this criterium cannot apply when they are higher than the level of the minimum social security pension paid by the host Member State

The Government are proposing to introduce a qualification period for benefits of three months, and after that it will depend on possession of the appropriate residence permit. 

Its easy when you think about it.

Rights of Residence in the EU

http://ec.europa.eu/youreurope/nav/en/citizens/living/right-residence/different-category/index_en.html#

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I personally think the re-introduction of the Cartes de sejour would be a very good thing.

I know I will probably open a can of worms saying this but I've never come to terms with people coming here and expecting financial support from the state. We moaned enough about people coming to the UK and jumping in to the benefit system. Why should it be expected here ?

 

 

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I totally agree with Bugbear. We seem to have moved on from wealthy people unexpectedly benefiting from free CMU etc to those who arrange their affairs purely so they can get these benefits. The system was designed for French people on low incomes, not wealthy people with lots of assets but little income from interest etc - and there are French people as well as British who do this. Most do not realise the financial state of the French social systems, which makes the NHS look prudent. France, and in particular its less well-off, cannot afford to subsidise people who can well afford to pay for themselves. Bing back the titre de sejour.
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I'm not a fan of ID cards at all. But at least in the olde days, one had to prove that we a person had enough to support themselves when living in France to get one and we had to have them.

The law for the RMI and CMU (NB I mean the CMU in the way it was originally presented and not the general payment system as now exists) was done for all the right reasons and with bonne foi. These things were needed and not before time. I am horrified at how it has been used and how badly it was done that it was open to abuse.

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[quote user="Will"]We seem to have moved on from wealthy people unexpectedly benefiting from free CMU etc to those who arrange their affairs purely so they can get these benefits. The system was designed for French people on low incomes, not wealthy people with lots of assets but little income from interest etc [/quote]

Yes.

I defended the "unexpected benefit" aspect a year or two ago because I felt that if someone chose to get by on a low income / savings and the French system didn't take their £250K in the bank into account, that was a fault of the system, not the individual. I've now encountered several pre-retirement couples who have had their local taxes reduced, they get French classes free from Greta - but have no intention of applying for jobs... there are a variety of additional benefits for which they have to apply - the benefits don't come without asking - and they've asked and are taking. Indefensible.

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Perhaps my message in the Health section would better have been posted here.

We know a couple, husband 53, wife 62, she has UK health service small pension.  Sold up in UK, bought new house here (off plan) and have very little equity left so they now get benefit.  He's fit and healthy, has reasonable French and just sits around all day doing b****r all except gossip and do a bit on the black when he feels like it.  Won't re-register his UK car tho he's been here for 5 years and happy to ponce off the state.

And he's anti-immigration in the UK .................

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Bugbear - snag is you have to say where the untaxed vehicle is, so that a DVLA official can make a 'formal sighting'. Can't see them bothering if you give an overseas location.

Don't get the wrong idea, - I'd love to see the law clamp down on these ignoramuses, and think it would probably be worth DVLA's while sending somebody to certain parts of France. I just have this nasty suspicion that they will probably continue to get away with it though.

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TonyF, nothing will happen to these people. They have no savings, so even if they change these rules a bit, it will change little for them.They can't be deported either, well I would imagine that they couldn't.

You sound like you 'know' them, all I can say is that I wouldn't have anything to do with such parasites, because that is what they are.

 

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When I arrived in France I applied for a Carte de sejour and I was told it wasn't needed. What ever the rights of wrongs of all this with reference to other nationalities supposedly taking advantage, it seems that it is entirely of the French bureaucrats making.

My E106 expired recently, by law I have to have health cover, I applied for CMU got it and have to pay for it.

If they get rid of the CMU what health cover are we supposed to get as I thought we ( Europeans) are required by law to join the French system rather than take out private insurance?

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[quote user="Will"]

Bugbear - snag is you have to say where the untaxed vehicle is, so that a DVLA official can make a 'formal sighting'. Can't see them bothering if you give an overseas location.

Don't get the wrong idea, - I'd love to see the law clamp down on these ignoramuses, and think it would probably be worth DVLA's while sending somebody to certain parts of France. I just have this nasty suspicion that they will probably continue to get away with it though.

[/quote]

 

This all makes me wonder why the Prefectures don't inform the Mairies about the laws pertaining to such vehicules, because once they are off the radar then they don't have to have a CT either. The Mairies are really best placed to do something about this. These days we are supposed to register with our Mairie when we move here, if? I have remembered the last thing I read about this properly, hope I did.

 

In this case, these people should have had a carte de sejour they only stopped them three years ago AND it also sounds like they hadn't got enough income to get a carte de sejour anyway, so why are they in France.

 

 

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[quote user="Tony F Dordogne"]

Perhaps my message in the Health section would better have been posted here.

We know a couple, husband 53, wife 62, she has UK health service small pension.  Sold up in UK, bought new house here (off plan) and have very little equity left so they now get benefit.  He's fit and healthy, has reasonable French and just sits around all day doing b****r all except gossip and do a bit on the black when he feels like it.  Won't re-register his UK car tho he's been here for 5 years and happy to ponce off the state.

And he's anti-immigration in the UK .................

[/quote]

Why don't you just let the French authorities take care of this. After all it is their coffers that are affected by this type of behaviour and they must know that the vehicle has been on French roads for longer than the legal period allowed. The vehicle is not on a public road in the UK

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Trouble is that like many other Brits in the Dordogne - not all the Brits of course but after a couple of years you get to see the same cars, Brit registered, still running round - they just flout the law.  I spoke to the G men and women about it and in the absence of a French DVLA or something similar, they don't have the resources to chase these people as they should.

I did contact the DVLA about this and a couple of other cars (not usually my style I add, more direct route for me usually) and they didn't want to know, even though the cars are still UK registered and have been illegally exported using UK addresses to cover up the export - "it's ok mate isn't it cos we take the car back to the UK every year for it's MOT and get it taxed" is the owners response.  And of course, when they go back to the UK the vehicle is properly registered, insured and all the rest so not much chance of a pull by the Constabulary.

Why the hell go through all that effort when it can be re-registered in France and easily kept legal here?  False economy or just plain stupid comes to mind. 

These people were friends once as was the s***e working on the black and getting CMU/RMI - not any longer especially as his wife used to call those working on the black all the names under the sun - bloody hypocrites all round.

Sorry folks, this really presses my button - so many of us are so careful, do all the pre- move research, work ourselves silly trying to make a legit living, paying our way with taxes etc, it just annoys the hell out of me!

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I don't really know why you all get so uptight about what other people do. I know quite a few French people who run french reg cars in the uk (and they don't cover their lights with sticky tape) but I don't see a lot of people talking about that. Thebrit expats who fiddle the system are a small drop in the ocean to the number of natives doing it. I think it would be better if you occupied your time doing something usefull instead of continually demonising people who may not have the same financial means that all you people have. If you have a problem just build a bridge and get over it

Yorky 

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I have followed the various links in these posts and the statement below is really concerning me

As a citizen of the Union, you may enter a Member State with a valid

identity card or passport and reside there for three months without any

formalities.

This would seem to imply that anyone on holiday is limited to 3 months and then becomes classed as a Resident, am I correct or worrying needlessly.

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I would add. The French authorities are well aware that they may be missing out on some funds from one direction. But they also know that money is getting spent in their supermarkets, DIY stores etc, that would not otherwise be getting spent here.

I wouldn't get all worked up about it. I'm sure the authorities track what's going on and will make their move when it suits them.

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[quote user="yorky"]

I don't really know why you all get so uptight about what other people do. I know quite a few French people who run french reg cars in the uk (and they don't cover their lights with sticky tape) but I don't see a lot of people talking about that. Thebrit expats who fiddle the system are a small drop in the ocean to the number of natives doing it. I think it would be better if you occupied your time doing something usefull instead of continually demonising people who may not have the same financial means that all you people have. If you have a problem just build a bridge and get over it

Yorky 

[/quote]

Just hope 'Yorky' that one of these prats doesn't run into your car or worse a member of your family.

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[quote user="yorky"]

I don't really know why you all get so uptight about what other people do. I know quite a few French people who run french reg cars in the uk (and they don't cover their lights with sticky tape) but I don't see a lot of people talking about that. Thebrit expats who fiddle the system are a small drop in the ocean to the number of natives doing it. I think it would be better if you occupied your time doing something usefull instead of continually demonising people who may not have the same financial means that all you people have. If you have a problem just build a bridge and get over it

Yorky 

[/quote]I think the only problem for me is the insurance implication.  What happens if they crash into me and it turns out I cannot claim against them?  The cost thing is spurious.  It is not expensive to re-register a car and in general insurance premiums are good value here.  No road tax either, CTAs every 2 years etc...
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bugbear and cooperlola are right re car insurance.  we know some people doing just that; take the car back to the uk and mot and tax there and pay insurance.  BUT, as far as i know, most insurance companies (even saga) require you to have an address in the uk.  therefore, it will be tough t**** if you get hit by one of these people!  it's easy to turn a blind eye as someone else has advised.  i wonder whether they'll still be so laid back about it all, if they or members of their families are adversely affected by law-breakers?
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Sweet 17, you are not quite correct in that SAGA will not insure you unless you have an address in the UK, they will not insure you unless you are a UK resident, and an address of a family member is not good enough!

 This is an email from SAGA in reply to that question;

Thank you for your e-mail.

I can confirm to you that we will not be able to offer you insurance as you are

not a UK resident.

If you should have any further questions do not hesitate to e-mail us again.

Yours Sincerely

Rebecca Wilson

Customer Service Advisor

Saga Services Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services

Authority
So if people just have an address, and I know one who does for a spare car that they keep in the UK at a relatives address, think that they will be covered in the event of an accident then they are mistaken.

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Bob, I got the same advice from both Direct Line and the Co-op when I was leaving the UK (I was after cover while doing the export paperwork).  Both said unless I either rented or owned the property whose address I was using, I could not be covered - residence was required for cover, so a mate or relative's address was not sufficient.  But I guess the small print doesn't matter until you claim.....
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