Taxing a civil service pension

[val douest]

We are currently in discussions with the local tax office over where income tax on my husband's pension should be paid.  He was a research scientist employed in a government laboratory and as such was without doubt a civil servant.  For the four+ years we have been here we have declared the pension as taxed income and have described it as a UK civil service pension - however a few weeks ago we received a demand for back tax (2005 and 2006) on this pension.  My husband visited the Hôtel des Impots this afternoon and presented payslips, pension statements and a letter from the laboratory stating that he was a civil servant and is now a civil service pensioner but this was not accepted, and has now been referred upwards for further consideration.  He has also spoken to the Inland Revenue in the UK who will only say that he should submit the appropriate form to reclaim tax paid in the UK and if it is considered that the tax is not reclaimable (ie because as a civil service pension it must be taxed at source) the request will be refused.  This seems a very cackhanded way of doing things.  The problem seems to have arisen because the Laboratory's paperwork does not actually say anywhere 'Government Laboratory': it is run by a research council which is responsible to another council which is then answerable to the Government, and the lab and both councils have changed their names several times over the years.

Has anyone else had similar problems establishing that their pension is from the civil service?  And if so how was its origin established?  Any suggestions on how to proceed or what further evidence to present would be very welcome.

[allanb]

Can you say where exactly this pension was declared on your French tax return?

[cooperlola]

I can't answer your question, but if you can begin to pay income tax in France, chances are you'll pay less....

[Salty Sam]

Val douest,

"Has anyone else had similar problems establishing that their pension is from the civil service?  And if so how was its origin established?  Any suggestions on how to proceed or what further evidence to present would be very welcome".

If your husband is receiving a Civil Service Pension, it will be paid via Capita Hartshead on behalf of HM Paymaster General and you/he should receive statements notifying of increases to his pension rate at least on a yearly basis. These notifications are clearly endorsed "Civil Service Pensions" or "Cabinet Office - Civil Service Pensions" and contain a personal Pension Reference Number.

Since 2002 all Civil Service Pensions have been handled / paid by Capita Hartshead on behalf of HM Paymaster

I would suggest looking at your bank statement to see where the pension is actually coming from or, contact the bank to which the pension is paid into and request details of where from the money comes.

Capita's contact details are csp.enquiries@capita.co.uk  Telephone 0870 1699 700

PO Box 215

Mowden Hall

Darlington

County Durham

DL3 9GT

Hope this is of some assistance.

[val douest]

Thank you for your replies.  We would be pleased if the pension was deemed taxable in France because, as has been pointed out, we would probably pay less.  But we do not want to be in the position of paying tax in France only to discover we are not allowed to reclaim it.  I know the double taxation treaty says we can't be taxed twice but we don't want to be fighting our corner with both countries.

The pension has been declared each year on the pink form 'Declaration des revenus encaissés à l'étranger' under section VII (Revenus exonérés pris en compte pour le calcul du taux effectif) and it has aroused no interest until a couple of weeks ago.

The pension is paid by the National Environmental Research Council which is itself a Government body - and people working for it are classified as scientific civil servants.  I guess this is why they have a different payment route from those paid by Capita, though thank you for the references Salty Sam.

Anyway, I'm glad to say we have found a possible avenue for supporting documentation.  The relevant HM Customs & Excise PDF file which we have downloaded clearly states that anyone in doubt as to whether or not their pension is a UK civil service pension should contact the Tax Office in Cardiff, with details of, and references to, the pension involved.  Initially my husband phoned Cardiff and the chap he spoke to was very unhelpful.  A letter has now been sent off to Cardiff and hopefully the reply should tell us one way or the other how the pension is classified and if - as we have always been led to believe - this is as a UK civil service pension then we will have fairly cast iron evidence to present to the French tax authorities; if not, we know tax must be paid in France and reclaimed from the UK.

I'll let you know the outcome in due course!

Val

[Ron Avery]

I'm assuming that you also declared the prension on the 2042 form as well and so it would have been traeted as a UK taxed pension. The 2047 is only a record collector and calculator for the 2042.

The French tax office advised  "For state (civil service) pensions you have to fill in form 2047 (pink) heading VII and then Form 2042 heading 8 box TI."

That apart if your husband's pension is determined as non civil servant  then you will have to claim back the tax only that he has paid since you moved to France.  When its all sorted, you will then have your pension paid gross to you and you then declare the amount in France and not to the UK even if you have a self assessment sent to you.  Not sure why you are being directed to Cardiff, the administrative tax office for Non Residents is in Nottingham unless its moved, and they are normally very helpful.

[val douest]

Some news! We received a recorded letter today from l'Hotel des Impots accepting that the pension is indeed a civil service pension, and rescinding the demand for back tax.  Many thanks to everyone for all your help.

Val