Got it wrong again?

[Jackie]

I must be doing something silly on these tax forms. Last year and again this year they have not taken income tax paid in the UK on my teachers' (Govt) pension into account. The important line missing on the Avis received this am is "Retenue de la source ou impôt payé un l'étranger et crédite d'impôt sur les le revenu étranger"  followed by the amount of tax paid in the UK. Last year I had to write a letter pointing out the problem and got a refund so I will do the same again this year however someone has suggested that I am putting the data regarding my teachers' pension and tax paid in the wrong place and would value others opinions.

I have been putting the net teachers' pension in box TI on form 2042, the tax paid in the UK in box TA section 8  2042C and the gross, net and tax paid in section VII  on form 2047. I did fill in the forms on-line for the first time this year but I don't think that has anything to do with the problem as the same thing happened last year.

So where am I going wrong folks?...............................................J

[Maricopa]

I hope someone else who is more knowlegeable comes along, but in the meantime.....

I know nothing about teachers pensions, but I do have an armed forces pension.  I declare net income in box TI on the 2042K, transposed over from the relevant boxes on the 2047.  I don't know anything about a 2042C, but last year when I showed what I had done to a tax official, they were perfectly happy.  To my unknowing mind, the problem would appear to be with the 2042C declaration.

I do hope someone who is in the same position as you comes along soon[:D]

[Sunday Driver]

From what you say, you have correctly put the UK pension gross, net and tax paid in section VII of the 2047 and transferred the relevent total across to box TI on the 2042 declaration. That does not generate any tax on your pension, but merely records the tax exempt foreign income for the purpose of calculating your RFR. If you have followed this procedure, then you will have no tax charge against your UK pension.

However, what you do appear to have done is to additionally enter the UK tax paid on your pension into box TA of the complimentary 2042C which is reserved for recording tax credits on UK dividends.  The note "Retenue de la source ou impôt payé un l'étranger et crédite d'impôt sur les le revenu étranger" would normally be the amount of the tax credit from box TA shown as a deduction.  By incorrectly inputting your UK pension tax as a dividend credit, you'd be getting a deduction which you aren't entitled to.

Perhaps you've actually completed this year's on-line declaration correctly - according to the tax FAQ, of course....[;-)]

 

[Jackie]

Well thanks for that. Someone in another place thought that too and said "You may have confused them by filling in TA on 2042C, this is not what it is intended for. It is for tax credits on Dividends paid in UK. Everything else you did was correct. But you should never underestimate the potential incompetence of the french junior fonctionnaire!" I do hope they don't mind me quoting verbatim but it does get to the point rather and it looks as if you both have put the proverbial finger on the problem, thanks again folks..........................................J 

PS I only did this on 2042C as twas done by the accountant the first two years we made a tax return and I have copied what he did since. Maybe then I don't to fill in anything on 2042C at all?  

[Sunday Driver]

Maricopa

The 2042C is a complementary tax form with additional sections covering areas not included in the basic 2042.  For most people with salaries/pensions and simple investments, the basic 2042 is sufficient.

Oh, and in case anyone asks, the 2042K is just the basic 2042 in 'pre-rempli' form.....[;-)]

 

[Sunday Driver]

"But you should never underestimate the potential incompetence of the french junior fonctionnaire!"

Perhaps that should read 'the potential incompetence of the ex-pat Brit making a tax declaration'.

Sorry, Jackie, but I just couldn't resist it....[:P] [;-)]

 

[Jackie]

Oh sure thing, I ain't got a clue when it comes to finance and I guess that applies to other things too. Nice to have chums who can set me straight!................................J[8-)]

[Jackie]

It is strange that there is nowhere on the 2042 to write the tax paid in the UK which would mean that they would have to look at the 2047 as only the net income is shown in TI. Maybe they are not doing this in my case, could it be as simple as that or am I being simple?...........................J

[plod]

Have you filled out the form (sorry I don't know the number) which outlines your income which is "encaissé à l'étranger"?

[Jackie]

Yes that is at the top of 2047. My point was that if they were in a rush or could not be bothered to look at 2047 then they would not know to give an allowance for tax paid in the UK. The result would be that I would pay more tax than I should and if not picked up and brought to their attention by me then they would be in a win win situation and one suspects the penalty for charging too much would not be as great as for charging too little, if any, or am I being cynical?...................................J

[Maricopa]

Hi Jackie

The point is that they know that the net income declared in TI is not subject to any further tax in France.  They can chose to check your figures on the 2047 if they wish.  However, if you have other source income that is subject to French tax, then the income in TI forms part of your RFR, and therefore can (correctly) raise the tax band that the French taxed income is taxed in.[:D]

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Jackie"]Yes that is at the top of 2047. My point was that if they were in a rush or could not be bothered to look at 2047 then they would not know to give an allowance for tax paid in the UK. The result would be that I would pay more tax than I should and if not picked up and brought to their attention by me then they would be in a win win situation and one suspects the penalty for charging too much would not be as great as for charging too little, if any, or am I being cynical?...................................J[/quote]

 

Not cynical,  just difficult to advise.  You have asked many questions on here about filling in your tax forms for what is a simple return and been directed to the FAQs that tell you exactly how to deal with your situation, but you have chosen to ignore the advice and do your own thing and you now blame the French for your cock up.  As you have been told many times on here and I suspect elsewhere,  the tax return is the 2042, the 2047 is there as a calculation sheet and back up, if you want to go adding amounts in boxes on the 2042 that you are not required to complete or mentioned  in the FAQs that people went to a lot of trouble to produce to help us all, I'm really sorry but that is your fault and not the fault of the French impots.[Www]

[Jackie]

OK I think that the penny is just beginning to drop. What you are saying is that the box TI figure is only being used to calculate the RFR and not the actual income tax owed although I assume from what you say that the RFR figure might affect the tax bands used to calculate income tax on that income which is taxable in France.

I have tried the Govt tax calculator at http://www3.finances.gouv.fr/calcul_impot/2008/simplifie/index.htm
but you cannot fill in box TI on this site as it comes up with a too difficult message. The figure it gives for tax due on all the other figures however is significantly less than that they are demanding but maybe this is why! Is there another tax calculator available anywhere?

It would appear that the only mistake I have made is in filling in UK income tax paid on 2042C and it would appear that were this taken into account it could only reduce and not increase the tax demand. Since no reference is made to that on the Avis D'Impot I can only assume that they have ignored it! Have I got the measure of this yet?...............J

PS One thing I would say is that this site is really tolerant of those who need help and reading what might appear to be stupid  questions and their friendly replies should be of help to others less well informed or robust!

[Ron Avery]

With the greatest respect and tolerance, I think readers of this thread will draw their own conclusions as to whether the posters on this Forum have been tolerant or not.[:P] 

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/2/1246258/ShowPost.aspx#1246258

[allanb]

The penny that has just dropped for me is that you have launched this discussion, and are still running it, on two different forums at the same time.

I don't know whether this breaks any forum rules, but it does seem to me to be a time-waster. If you had arranged a physical meeting to discuss the problem, you wouldn't have it in two separate rooms, would you?

[Jackie]

My experience is that the other forum has some folk who for reasons best known to them do not look at this one. This then ensures a wider range of opinion to be potentially available. I would also think that anyone not interested in alleged time wasting would not offer responses on either or both. If opinions from different sources agree then one might come to the conclusion that they have some validity and, as always, I am grateful for those received so far. I am also happy to consider the topic exhausted for the time being................................J