291% increase in Tax Habitation

[Jeff Cooper]

I'm a very worried newbie here, so forgive me for getting straight down to it with no introductions! We have a small detached farmhouse in Charente nr Limousin border, and used to pay around £150 in Tax d'habitation, this was for 2 rooms that were currently useable - I opened our renovation works on our CDU last year, and had some sort of form asking me about room sizes and numbers etc, which I duly filled in (without truly understanding it!) - our new TDH bill came in (annoyingly to England, exactly in the middle of our week in France!) at an increase of 291% - ie its gone up to 830 Euro from 200. Even if the works were complete, this seems incredibly high for a two bed two bath (+ 1 cloakroom) property, not standing in its own garden, and I think I'm right in  saying that the Fonciere will be even more?! - this total amount would be more than for a chateau in England, and could well break us financially.

It would be nice to get some actual values for other peoples TDH and TF just to compare, and also any advice for an extremely bad French speaker on what the heck I can do now - the date for paying is 15th Oct (but my DD goes out on the 28th I think), and we will be in France again on the 22nd of Oct for a week, but the French woman at our local Tresorie who I telephoned yesterday morning just said it was too late to explain, and we would have to go in next time we were there (or at least that's what I think she said)

Help!! 

[Val_2]

You must go the Impôts immediately to state your case and explain the works have not been completed. You probably sent in the wrong form without understanding it as you have said and they have adjusted your tax accordingly. Some communes do levy higher charges on second homes. They will give you a form to state the works have not been completed or send out an inspector to take a look to confirm this. Whatever you do, it must be done without further delay because if you do not pay they will enter your bank account and take the amount automatically and if there is not enough in there,you will be in trouble.

[andyh4]

[quote user="Jeff Cooper"]

 and had some sort of form asking me about room sizes and numbers etc, which I duly filled in (without truly understanding it!) - our new TDH bill came in (annoyingly to England, exactly in the middle of our week in France!) at an increase of 291% - ie its gone up to 830 Euro from 200.

Help!! 

[/quote]

 

Salutory lesson to everyone.  Never, ever sign anything you do not understand.

As Val suggests it sounds as if you have filled out your H1 confirming completion of the works.

You will be paying a lot for all of those sanitation facilities since each bathroom and toilet clicks up an extra few points on the calculation. 

Given that you did not understand the form it is equally possible indeed probable that you have overstated areas.  Some areas are not declared (anything under 1.8m high and I think stairways)

 

As Val suggests the best thing is to visit the tresorie at your next opportunity and hope that they can set things straight.

[ams]

Seems excessive. I would suggest that you take a video or photos of the current state of the house and visit your local impot and get the situation reversed or sorted out immediately. They can reverse the bill on the spot and issue you with essentially a credit note.

 

ams

[5-element]

But OP mentioned that he/she will not be in France until October, so presumably, cannot visit the Hotel des Impots before then? You really have to pay now, and reclaim the money later - if you delay payment, your will be taxed an extra 10% and I am not sure that you could reclaim that?

[giantpanda]

Hi!

Taxe d'Habitation are very dependant on the state of finances of the Commune.

Now there can be such rises (  even up to 10 times ) if the projects the Commune had, did not work.

Therefore before starting at the Tax Office, it is best to here from you neighbours, or from the Mairie, what the increase rate against last year was.

In fact is is on your bills ( compare both in details );

Yours,

giantpanda

[Chancer]

[quote user="andyh4"][quote user="Jeff Cooper"]

 [/quote]

 

  Some areas are not declared (anything under 1.8m high and I think stairways)

[/quote]

My experience at thze hotel des impots on this very subject was to find that virtually all areas are included in the calculation including outside wall thicknesses, stairwells etc.

I was told that I did not need to fill out the H1 form as the works that I had done under a declaration de travaux were only external finishes but they convinced me to as I had been unknowingly been continuing to pay commercial taxes and that residential ones would be less.

And indeed they would have been if the previous owners had declared the true habitable area at 250m2 as opposed to the 36m2 that they and I had been paying for [:(]

I am awaiting this years bill [:(]

They did actually do a projection for me so I have an idea what the taxes fonciere will be, does anyone know if the tax habitation rises by the same ratio? I.E. habitable area up by 700%, taxes fonciere up by 50% (estimated) does it follow that the tax habitation will rise by 50% or should I steel myself for 700%?

[Will]

It sometimes happens that a small alteration or improvement can trigger a large rise in taxes. This is often because the house was undervalued for taxation purposes previously. This is frequently as a result of, as JRGN above says, previous owners not declaring other works.

[woody234]

i expect the previous owners was declaring 20m2 then you done the renovations and filled out the dreaded  H1  form for 100m2 for example  and then  the shock happens, the same thing happened to me, but there is a clever french goverment website  that allows you to see  your property and actually measure in metres distances of your property, i dont have the name at the moment but i will try and find it if you need it,  it might help

[giantpanda]

Hi!

One of the elements which also can explain the high increase of the taxes, is the fact, that when you buy a house, you are not aware ( difficult to check * ) what the former owner, or even owners have effectively declared.

So when you undertake work, which leads to a new evaluation of the premises, you really do not know what you can expect.

Yours,

giantpanda

The only check you can make is to go on the following internet site ( available since this year, if your Commune is on it ) and see if the buildings the " cadastre" has, are the same as those you bought.

http://www.cadastre.gouv.fr/scpc/accueil.do

But that does not bring you the information of the state of the amenities that have been declared or not.

NB. the Tax Office will, if there is no prescription, possibly claim taxes  and fines from the former owners.

[AnOther]

[quote user="Jeff Cooper"]....this total amount would be more than for a chateau in England, and could well break us financially.[/quote]It would have to be VERY SMALL chateau indeed. Our small 2 bed cottage in UK was costing over £1000/pa in council tax, + TV licence of course, which is included in your French tax !

I'm sure this must have come as a shock but, and I'll admit that I'm no expert, €150 sounds exceptionally low to me. Ours for a 3 bed/1bath detatched house with a large barn is about €800.

Shock or not and do please forgive me for being blunt, were I in a position where this sort of differential could threat to, as you put it 'very well break me financially', I think I would be seriously re-evaluating my position. With the exchange rate inexorably heading in the wrong direction along with natural TdH and TF inflation, and potentially far bigger rises if renovating, if one were already sailing close to the wind then these factors could very easily sink you.

I do wish you the best of luck with sorting it out anyway, not the easiest task when on the ground let alone from UK [blink]

[Jeff Cooper]

I need to firstly thank everyone for their replies, some of them calmed me down, others had me reaching for the phone to book a quick trip! However, after calming down, I discovered this weekend that I had just learnt a very valuable lesson. Namely, never open up French post after driving 630 miles back to England from France. Because you will read it wrong! What I actually received was my Tax Fonciere, not Habitation - so far from expecting another bill at twice the 830 euro, I should be getting one at 400 euro. This is altogether a different scenario!!!

I still feel that the Government are now under the impression that my house is finished, which I will try to sort out, but at least if I can't, we can now afford to keep the house.

The website giving the cadastrale plans, and allowing measurements to be made online, is fantastic, so very many thanks for that reference.

The final lesson - is yet again to learn as much French as possible. Preferably Building terms and Tax wording!!

Thanks again for everyones help.