Not in the French Tax System, been here a few years now.....

[BobDee]

This is real, it happens all the time.. What if a person having  lived in France for say three years, has knowlingly or perhaps unknowingly,  never completed a French tax return? As I understand it from the forums, there are issues with capital gains tax if and when you wanted to sell your home, but even that has been denied, and it would even seem possible to get into the the french health system etc.

If someone is in this position and and is now convinced or the error of his or her ways, can he/she go the local Impots office and say "sorry, I didnt know that I should have made a declaration". Ignorance will  be no excuse, but what happens then? A retrospective declaration, a fine, or worse?

I have seen it argued that one's concience should be the arbiter in such matters, but that dosnt always come to the fore in some situations.

Not personally applicable, I have to say, but hard information on this would be good to have at hand as necessary.

BobD     

[cooperlola]

IMO, people in this position (and there are probably thousands) have two choices.  Either they carry on as now and hope nobody ever catches up with them or they go to the impots and put their hands up.  If the former then to my mind, they take a big risk as - if they become ill - unless they have the time to rush back to the UK and convince the NHS they are still resident there, they'll probably, at best, have to pay for all their treatment.  If the latter, at least they have a chance to convince the authorities that it was a genuine mistake and they may avoid the heavy fines and other penalties associated with tax evasion. Whether they would ever be allowed into the health system is another matter as it is reliant upon legal residence but at least if they got private insurance or E form cover, they could remain in France!

I do know of a couple in just this position who have just owned up to the authorities.  They await the outcome.

[Sunday Driver]

Anyone who voluntarily owns up to an error is generally only liable to pay the back tax plus interest at 4.8%.  The impots take the view that 'we pay you interest on any overcharge, you should pay us the same on what you owe us'.  If the impots discover things for themselves or you try to be obstructive, then they'll pursue the full legal sanctions.

The impots [url=http://www2.impots.gouv.fr/documentation/charte_contrib/index.htm]Charte du Contribuable[/url] gives an idea of their likely approach.

Mind you, anyone having sold their house and been horrified to be told by the notaire that there's 50,000€ capital gains tax to pay, shouldn't expect to rush round to the tax office and sheepishly own up to not having declared for the last X years.  I can imagine the impots saying Never mind, we'll let you off the 1,500€ back tax and we'll take the 50,000€ from your house sale instead.......

 

 

[parsnips]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

IMO, people in this position (and there are probably thousands) have two choices.  Either they carry on as now and hope nobody ever catches up with them or they go to the impots and put their hands up.  If the former then to my mind, they take a big risk as - if they become ill - unless they have the time to rush back to the UK and convince the NHS they are still resident there, they'll probably, at best, have to pay for all their treatment.  If the latter, at least they have a chance to convince the authorities that it was a genuine mistake and they may avoid the heavy fines and other penalties associated with tax evasion. Whether they would ever be allowed into the health system is another matter as it is reliant upon legal residence but at least if they got private insurance or E form cover, they could remain in France!

I do know of a couple in just this position who have just owned up to the authorities.  They await the outcome.

[/quote]

Hi,

    I've been here 16 yrs and have some experience of helping people with tax matters; I'm not convinced that you need to "own up", you would probably get away with making a declaration next spring of all 2008 income (unless you are so rich as to attract the french taxmans interest!). Before that you can contact the UK taxman and get form P85 ,which sets your date of leaving the UK --you could put a date during late 2007--to coincide with a visit you have made, preferably , but I doubt anyone will check.

   If you do nothing, then sooner or later (they cross- check from local tax records and other data bases ) you will get a letter asking you to complete an enclosed tax declaration. This has happened to several of my aquaintances , but ,in my experience , as long as they have responded in the 30 days allowed, there has been no penalty ,nor have they been asked about previous years.

   In one case ,where the recipient did not understand the letter and did not reply until he got the red reminder, the only penalty was the loss of the 20% allowance(which no longer exists) on his pension and a 10% increase in his tax bill . Although he had been in France for about 7 years ,no questions were asked about those previous years .

   I have found it best in all dealings with the taxman to use letters  or email and to avoid face- to -face interviews. In a face -to-face ,unless you are fluent in both french and tax-speak,

there is room for costly misunderstandings, and you can have questions sprung on you which you have not anticipated. If you stick to writing you can think about what you are going to say, you can examine the taxman's answer(with help if required), and you have a record of everything both you and he have said.

   You don't need to go to the tax office to get your declaration form next year--you can download from www.impots.gouv.fr sometime around end april/early may--you will need forms 2042 and 2047. 

[cooperlola]

I am sure that you are correct Parsnips, as you deal with these things all the time and I do not.  All the same, I'm a little p*ssed off to think that those who've paid no tax over here will just be let off if they lie about their arrival date and that there's no more to it than that.  As ever, it makes me feel like something of a mug for having been honest....

It also doesn't solve the healthcare problem if one is inactive and not on an E form.

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

It also doesn't solve the healthcare problem if one is inactive and not on an E form.

[/quote]

 

But I thought that was what the European Health Insurance Card was for [8-)]

[mint]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"][quote user="cooperlola"]

It also doesn't solve the healthcare problem if one is inactive and not on an E form.

[/quote]

 

But I thought that was what the European Health Insurance Card was for [8-)]

[/quote]

Yes, for emergencies and for things that need doing in that situation (kind of a temporary repair kit).

What if you have something routinely wrong or even something that's not life-threatening immediately but could be of a more chronic and nonetheless unpleasant nature?

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="sweet 17"][quote user="Boiling a frog"][quote user="cooperlola"]

It also doesn't solve the healthcare problem if one is inactive and not on an E form.

[/quote]

 

But I thought that was what the European Health Insurance Card was for [8-)]

[/quote]

Yes, for emergencies and for things that need doing in that situation (kind of a temporary repair kit).

What if you have something routinely wrong or even something that's not life-threatening immediately but could be of a more chronic and nonetheless unpleasant nature?

[/quote]

Nip back to the good old UK where health care is free

[parsnips]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

I am sure that you are correct Parsnips, as you deal with these things all the time and I do not.  All the same, I'm a little p*ssed off to think that those who've paid no tax over here will just be let off if they lie about their arrival date and that there's no more to it than that.  As ever, it makes me feel like something of a mug for having been honest....

It also doesn't solve the healthcare problem if one is inactive and not on an E form.

[/quote]

Hi, cooperlola,

         The chances are that someone not registered for tax here will still be paying in the UK, usually at a higher rate,so they won't be getting away with much. In fact, as you point out, in the matter of health care they could find themselves in big trouble.

[BobDee]

So, todate, other than healthcare, and I'm not really sure about that, see below, no one has said that there are any major penalties in not being in the system.

We have been here for just under two years, both above retirement age and therefore courtesy of the E121 procedure, were issued with our Carte Vital's within 4 months of our arrival. At that point we were not in the French tax system and made our first return for 2007 in May this year. So the healthcare cover was not dependent on our tax status.

Like CL, I feel a tad 'miffed if it is that easy to stay outside with apparently no comebacks.

A lot of dark mutterings about how you will be caught out eventually, but no one seems to have actual experience of steps being taken.

I note from looking at  my "avis d'impositions", that the "numero fiscals" are all the same, so it must be very easy for the authorities to see that a person is payng Tax Fonciere, Tax d'habitation but not "Impot Sur les Revenues".

Really puzzling.

BobD 

[Clair]

[quote user="BobDee"]I note from looking at  my "avis d'impositions", that the "numero fiscals" are all the same, so it must be very easy for the authorities to see that a person is payng Tax Fonciere, Tax d'habitation but not "Impot Sur les Revenues". Really puzzling.[/quote]

Bob, this does not necessarily mean that the owner is avoiding paying the impôts sur les revenus, as a UK tax payer with a holiday home in France would also have to pay the taxe foncière and taxe d'habitation.

[BobDee]

Clair,

Yes but,

(Fonciere + D'habitation + Carte Vitale - Revenues) = Bastille! 

or:

(Fonciere + D'habitation + Permis de Conduire - Revenues) = Bastille

Non?

BobD

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="BobDee"]

Clair,

Yes but,

(Fonciere + D'habitation + Carte Vitale - Revenues) = Bastille! 

Non?

BobD

[/quote]

 

NON for the moment.

The tax system and the health care system are not joined up so no one can check simply if someone has Fonciere Habitation Carte vitale but not declaring income.

[Chancer]

[quote user="BobDee"]

This is real, it happens all the time.. What if a person having  lived in France for say three years, has knowlingly or perhaps unknowingly,  never completed a French tax return? As I understand it from the forums, there are issues with capital gains tax if and when you wanted to sell your home, but even that has been denied, and it would even seem possible to get into the the french health system etc.

If someone is in this position and and is now convinced or the error of his or her ways, can he/she go the local Impots office and say "sorry, I didnt know that I should have made a declaration". Ignorance will  be no excuse, but what happens then? A retrospective declaration, a fine, or worse?

Not personally applicable, I have to say, but hard information on this would be good to have at hand as necessary.

BobD     

[/quote]

After reading your post initially I thought it was one of those "I have a friend" ones but after reading your later description of your circumstances I now wonder under what circumstances would you need the above?

Editted, perhaps you want to denounce (grass up) someone.

[BobDee]

JR,

Just to have something in the "locker" when at some Christmas event a fellow reveller starts telling all and sundry that he knows best and rules dont apply to him!

Edited also:

No intention of spilling any beans but if it becomes the normal way of Brit behaviour to spend ones life getting round the system, then we all suffer.

BobD

 

[Boiling a frog]

Perhaps he has come across one or several of these people who firmly believe that they do not have to put in a French tax return because

1) They have not received a request to submit one

2) They pay tax in the UK so do not need to ( whether on a Govt pension or some other type)

3)They are British

4)They only stay in France for xx months a year, returning home for Xmas, New Year and Grandchildrens birthdays

5) They cannot be bothered with all the paperwork and these damned French insist on everything being in French

or a multitude of other reasons

 

 

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"][quote user="sweet 17"][quote user="Boiling a frog"][quote user="cooperlola"]

It also doesn't solve the healthcare problem if one is inactive and not on an E form.

[/quote]

 

But I thought that was what the European Health Insurance Card was for [8-)]

[/quote]

Yes, for emergencies and for things that need doing in that situation (kind of a temporary repair kit).

What if you have something routinely wrong or even something that's not life-threatening immediately but could be of a more chronic and nonetheless unpleasant nature?

[/quote]

Nip back to the good old UK where health care is free

[/quote]D*mmit, BaF, of course.  I hadn't thought of that.  Silly me.

[Patf]

We also didn't fill in a tax return until we had been here nearly 3 years. I had gone into the office to ask about it, and as our taxes were all paid in UK I thought the man said it didn't matter.

We eventually got a letter to go in and see them, and started from there, no penalties.

I think they would make more fuss if you really needed to pay them some tax.

Another thing, we didn't get a Tax Hab. bill for ages, and I went to various places to ask, and they said "why worry?" We didn't have to pay the arrears.

[parsnips]

Hi,

  Bob Dee said he felt miffed if it is easy to stay outside the system with no apparent comebacks; I don't see why ; as I said earlier those people who are "outside" the french system are still paying tax in the UK (unless of course they are lifelong tax dodgers--unlikely). In my experience I have never come across anyone who ,once correctly taxed in France(you must know how to declare), paid more tax than they would have in the UK.So, the best response to the party bores who brag on that they have" kept out of the french system for years" is to ask them if they enjoy paying tax at inflated UK rates.

    He also mentioned getting health cover without a problem; this is because as a state pensioner covered by E121, his health contributions are paid by the UK government(at a rate of 3600€ p.a. per person),so ,in theory he is not taking anything from the french state.

    People coming off of E106 cover,who are under state retirement age, are likely to be looked at much more closely, because they are a potential charge on the french health budget.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"][quote user="sweet 17"][quote user="Boiling a frog"][quote user="cooperlola"]

It also doesn't solve the healthcare problem if one is inactive and not on an E form.

[/quote]

 

But I thought that was what the European Health Insurance Card was for [8-)]

[/quote]

Yes, for emergencies and for things that need doing in that situation (kind of a temporary repair kit).

What if you have something routinely wrong or even something that's not life-threatening immediately but could be of a more chronic and nonetheless unpleasant nature?

[/quote]

Nip back to the good old UK where health care is free

[/quote]

Hi,

  I know somebody who followed the "nip back" policy--till his son had an acute respiratory illness and had to be immediately hospitalised at a cost ,to him, of several thousand €.

 

[KathyC]

[quote user="parsnips"][quote user="Boiling a frog"][quote user="sweet 17"][quote user="Boiling a frog"][quote user="cooperlola"]

It also doesn't solve the healthcare problem if one is inactive and not on an E form.

[/quote]

 

But I thought that was what the European Health Insurance Card was for [8-)]

[/quote]

Yes, for emergencies and for things that need doing in that situation (kind of a temporary repair kit).

What if you have something routinely wrong or even something that's not life-threatening immediately but could be of a more chronic and nonetheless unpleasant nature?

[/quote]

Nip back to the good old UK where health care is free

[/quote]

Hi,
  I know somebody who followed the "nip back" policy--till his son had an acute respiratory illness and had to be immediately hospitalised at a cost ,to him, of several thousand €.
 
[/quote]

 

"Nipping back" may be OK if you're well but not something you can do easily if ill.

[BobDee]

[quote user="parsnips"]
  Bob Dee said he felt miffed if it is easy to stay outside the system with no apparent comebacks; I don't see why ; 
[/quote]

The main negative causing miffyness, is that we pay tax in the UK, pay tax in France, do all the right things to claim back the UK component and here we are nearly ten months later, still waiting for the refund.

[Danny]

[quote user="parsnips"]Hi,
  Bob Dee said he felt miffed if it is easy to stay outside the system with no apparent comebacks; I don't see why ; as I said earlier those people who are "outside" the french system are still paying tax in the UK (unless of course they are lifelong tax dodgers--unlikely). In my experience I have never come across anyone who ,once correctly taxed in France(you must know how to declare), paid more tax than they would have in the UK.So, the best response to the party bores who brag on that they have" kept out of the french system for years" is to ask them if they enjoy paying tax at inflated UK rates.
    He also mentioned getting health cover without a problem; this is because as a state pensioner covered by E121, his health contributions are paid by the UK government(at a rate of 3600€ p.a. per person),so ,in theory he is not taking anything from the french state.
    People coming off of E106 cover,who are under state retirement age, are likely to be looked at much more closely, because they are a potential charge on the french health budget.
[/quote]

Of course, no one really knows but I would hazard a guess that there are plenty people who have come to France - bought a property or even a 'gites complex' and just take a lot of cash money or get paid by UK cheques, the cash disappears and they send the cheques off to the granny's account in the UK. They just don't get ill or if they do they get back to the UK.    They probably think 'Why declare an income if you can get away with not doing so'

they are not necessarily declaring any income in the UK - or other countries, its not just brits - either

Danny

[mint]

Well, I know of at least 2 couples who only "declared" when they were selling their houses to go back to the UK.

Just had to declare, no penalties, no anything EXCEPT that they got all their gains (ill-gotten or whatever) and buggered back where they came from.

As Coops has said, what's the point of being honest and actually volunteering to pay French taxes?

[5-element]

I can't imagine ANY French person volunteering to pay taxes, ever.... On the contrary, they wait until they are asked, usually...