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Toni from Spain


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Couldn't agree more. Why are people so quick to run others down, criticise their naievity or just take the opportunity to put the "boot in"; there certainly is an air of "you chose to come to France so tough, get on with it" on this Forum.  I have read many comments like this over the years on a variety of threads and wonder if those making these judgemental comments are actually regretting moving to France themselves and just want to make a point and hope that others are suffering as much as they obviously are?
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Where ever did this attitude of "they chose to leave the UK to live in another country so they should not expect any help" come from?

Putting aside the 'help' matter for a moment leaving one EU country to live in another does not mean you have 'abandoned' anything. It simply means you have relocated. You are still a British citizen with all the rights that status affords.

A major principle of the EU is the free movement of capital and labour for it's citizens. Rights continue wherever you live.

Financial help on the other hand is governed by domestic law. Which is incidentally outdated and unfair in UK.

Danish citizens for example receive the same benefits wherever they live in the EU as if they still lived in Denmark.

It is just plain wrong to accuse someone of abandoning their native state just because they choose to live somewhere else.
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Happy Christmas Y'All...

Just had to add my sixpenn'orth to this. Some of us have have chosen to relocate to France to enjoy a different way of life, better weather, different surroundings, culture, food, etc etc etc etc....- whatever....

But - although we are here, and happy, we are realistic enough to know that some years down the line, driving 15 miles to the nearest supermarket will become less easy and more expensive; driving at night will no longer safe because of eye-sight changes; the weight of the chain-saw to cut the wood will become more a strain on the heart; the lugging of the wood into the house will be difficult because of declining strength; the gas cylinders become heavier to deal with because of back problems....and all in all life - which was good for 10 years or more - becomes difficult. And at that point, some of us know we will think of returning - however reluctantly - back to the UK.

Now to those who, very rudely I feel, say - 'you made the choice' - with the implicit shrug of the shoulders....how many of you really saw the pound/mickey mouse euro parity rate ? How many of you were clever enough to convert all your sterling into the Disney money ? How many of you were aware that house prices were going to drop the way they did ?    How many of you, in short, have won the UK or the Disney lottery ?

Some of us have UK pensions that ARE taxed in the UK; as well as UK shares, investments, and property....property which we decided to hold on to as a 'just in case' something happened to one or other of us, there was somewhere to return to which was close to family and friends.

Circumstances have meant that for a large number of UK ex-Pats our finances are tied up very much with the UK and pound sterling. And we are being badly affected by matters out of our control. We worked hard, saved, paid our way, never claimed for anything, led decent, law-abiding, respectable lives....like everyone else on this Board...and we are being clobbered through no fault of our own.

Yes, it'll work out, yes we'll all come through it. But we STILL have a vested interest in the UK - it is where our families continue to live, where our children and grand-children are having to cope with very different circumstances than a year ago...to the point where I am very worried about my family, and wish I was back in the UK to help them.....instead of being out here and seeing our savings being eroded; I would prefer to be back in the UK to help my family financially....

Don't any of you look beyond your own, very fortunate, very comfortable, set of circumstances and see that for some of us the few years of living in the sun after a lifetime of work is beginning to turn a bit difficult ?

And as for 'asking for help from UK' - No, that is not what I'm suggesting. But maybe if UK pensioners had a decent pension instead of having to go through the Means Test route and have to'claim for this..',  'claim for that...', 'Tax Credit  for this..' , 'Tax Credit for that'...maybe some of us  UK ex-pats might not be experiencing such a worrying time.  A decent pension is all we UK pensioners want...we've more than contributed, and when you realise that some EU countries pay decent pensions regardless of where in the EU the pensioner lives then it is pretty galling for UK ex-Pats who can get no help out here, but would be able to if they were back in the UK.

Life is not going to be easy for a lot of us over the next few years; to those of you who are comfortable with no worries - then I hope it continues that way for you. To those who are not quite so comfortable, and are starting to worry...chin up, we'll get by one way or another.

And may I wish you All a Very Happy Christmas - and Good Luck for 2009 !!!

Regards - Chessie

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Hmm.  Perhaps some might say that anybody with two properties, plus shares and investments, is hardly on the poverty line, no matter where they live?  However, you no doubt earned the money so I certainly do not bregrudge you any of it, Chessie.  But no country is likely to list you amongst its top priorities for aid, when its economy is suffering.  I don't see how it can justify increasing pensions when, before too long, there will be no money left to pay them as the population ages and no government is prepared to take the drastic measures needed to deal with this problem.

I suspect that our generation is likely to be one of the last to appreciate the very concept of early retirement.  I doubt whether your children and grandchildren will have this option, Chessie, especially if present day governments choose to pay us oldies even more for the privelege of doing nothing, wherever we live.

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Hi Cooperlola (nice to see you back from your 'little escapade' X)

You are missing my point slightly. Yes we're OK - a lot of people aren't. And none of us saw the disasters looming; we would all have taken steps to ensure we would be financially OK - and it's gone very badly wrong for large numbers.

My points - the UK state pension is pretty low compared to those in other EU countries. If all UK pensioners received a decent state pension there would be fewer people ex-UK to suffer the present hardship.

Those pensioners in the UK who need it CAN claim extra help - via the Means Testing benefit system - which is denied to those who now live in the EU. And knowing that other countries treat their pensioners decently adds  to the feeling of being treated very unfairly.

A decent UK state pension first - NOT means tested which is a throwback to the 30s....some problems would be eased.

As for early retirement - come on, I didn't mention that, and it's a side-issue. And a few shares, and having kept our UK property, certainly doesn't make us very comfortably off.  And I worry about my family.....

Chessie

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hi chessie

 

how would you suggest the government funds any pension increase??....given that there is already a huge deficit in what they propose to pay public sector employees and what is in the pot......and that most private sector employees are already having to contribute heavily to there own meagre schemes.

 

sheldon

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[quote user="chessie"]Hi Cooperlola (nice to see you back from your 'little escapade' X)

You are missing my point slightly. Yes we're OK - a lot of people aren't. And none of us saw the disasters looming; we would all have taken steps to ensure we would be financially OK - and it's gone very badly wrong for large numbers.

My points - the UK state pension is pretty low compared to those in other EU countries. If all UK pensioners received a decent state pension there would be fewer people ex-UK to suffer the present hardship.

Those pensioners in the UK who need it CAN claim extra help - via the Means Testing benefit system - which is denied to those who now live in the EU. And knowing that other countries treat their pensioners decently adds  to the feeling of being treated very unfairly.

A decent UK state pension first - NOT means tested which is a throwback to the 30s....some problems would be eased.

As for early retirement - come on, I didn't mention that, and it's a side-issue. And a few shares, and having kept our UK property, certainly doesn't make us very comfortably off.  And I worry about my family.....

Chessie

[/quote]

Hi chessie,

    I definitely agree with you on the UK pensions issue. This was originally presented as a National Insurance scheme to which everybody contributed the same amount and received the same level of pension (and widow's pension), this seemed very fair (even though we had no choice, as it was compulsory). Later it was amended so that people contributed according to their means(up to point) but still all received the same pension , this was a more "socialist" form of fairness , perhaps.

    Now we  are at a point where the basic pension has been devalued to the lowest in Europe, and the widow's pension has been effectively abolished .

    The unfortunate and (probably more numerous) feckless UK residents can suppliment this miserable provision( for which they will usually have made minimal contributions), with means-tested benefits, paid  for also by those who have contributed most in NI and taxes.  Many of those who have paid (and often continue to pay )tax into the UK system, are excluded  from all these benefits (should they fill the financial conditions ) purely because they have chosen to live elsewhere in our "united" Europe.

    If it was an insurance company acting in the same way the Board would end up "inside"!

 

 

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According to the DWP, the basic state pension payable to someone who has the required number of contributions is £90.70 per week - £4,716 per annum.

In order to clarify those 'UK pension is the lowest in Europe' statements, does anyone know what the equivalent pension would be for a similar French person....?

 

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Sunday Driver wrote:

"In order to clarify those 'UK pension is the lowest in Europe' statements, does anyone know what the equivalent pension would be for a similar French person....?"

I hope a french person can add to this, but it's impossible to compare like with like here as the are many different caisses into which people of different occupations pay towards their pension.

An example is the pension for agricultural workers, which is I think one of the lowest: 633€pm for payments of 37.5 years.

http://www.francematin.info/Un-minimum-retraite-pour-les-agriculteurs_a17149.html

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I can certainly see that there is an argument to be made for the means tested elements of pension payments (pension credits etc) being exportable.  It's daft that by moving one must lose out, I get that.  The same argument is made for DLA and the European courts were in agreement, were they not?

If we wish to have the level of pensions which some French workers enjoy, though, we and future generations will have to pay through the nose for them.  I have farmer friends here and their pension contributions are a good deal higher than the National Insurance contributions paid in the UK.  It has always seemed to me that cotis are incredibly high and that's the payoff for the ultimate benefits which are reaped, isn't it?

Chessie, I know you did not mention early retirement but I did because I suspect that much of the resentment towards those who have moved abroad, is aimed at those (amongst whom I number myself) who, if they had not sold their UK property and moved over here, would have had to carry on working until normal retirement age, just to pay off the mortgage and own the home they lived in in Britain.  Happily my o/h and I love France, and this little corner of it in particular, so we'll keep our heads down and weather the financial difficulties as best we can. 

At least I'm in a nice warm hospital being fed three square meals a day.[6]

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"The unfortunate and (probably more numerous) feckless UK residents can

suppliment this miserable provision( for which they will usually have

made minimal contributions), with means-tested benefits, paid  for also

by those who have contributed most in NI and taxes.
"

Grrrrrrrr.  Sweeping generalisations are not helpful.  We are in our forties, have three children under 10,  pay a large mortgage, and pay all the taxes etc that are required of us.  W At the end of all this, assuming we eat and buy the occasional stitch of clothing, we do not have any spare money to pay for private pensions.  No doubt some grumpy-pants will make comments about having three children being our choice, but answer this - in the future, whose taxes will pay for roads, schools, hospitals, and even, dare I say it, subsidising feckless crumblies?

On this cheeful note, I intend to go and do despicable things to a turkey - it will make me feel better (I think this is known as displacement therapy...)

Joyeux noel a tous

Fi

 

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[quote user="parsnips"]

    I definitely agree with you on the UK pensions issue. This was originally presented as a National Insurance scheme to which everybody contributed the same amount and received the same level of pension (and widow's pension), this seemed very fair (even though we had no choice, as it was compulsory). Later it was amended so that people contributed according to their means(up to point) but still all received the same pension , this was a more "socialist" form of fairness , perhaps. 
   
[/quote]

That is completely wrong. The UK basic state pension, ever since it's introduction by Lloyd George 100 years ago, has always been funded by the following generation . i.e no UK pensioner has ever funded his/her own basic state pension.

Contributions have always been based on an ability to pay - they have never been the same for everyone. Nor has the amount received always been the same (in LG's day even the basic pension was means tested and only payable to "people of good character").

Today , whether or not you qualify for a basic state pension, and how much you receive, depends on a range of qualifting criteria which are not in any way related to the size of your contibution. Indeed it is perfectly possible to qualify for a full basic state pension without ever having paid NI contributions. . You may not like that - but what is your alternative ? A return to the poor houses of Lloyd George's day ?

As a slight aside , most commentators agree that the biggest blow to pensions in the UK was the removal of the link to wages by ...........

rgds

Hagar

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[quote user="Fi"]"The unfortunate and (probably more numerous) feckless UK residents can

suppliment this miserable provision( for which they will usually have

made minimal contributions), with means-tested benefits, paid  for also

by those who have contributed most in NI and taxes.
"

Grrrrrrrr.  Sweeping generalisations are not helpful.  We are in our forties, have three children under 10,  pay a large mortgage, and pay all the taxes etc that are required of us.  W At the end of all this, assuming we eat and buy the occasional stitch of clothing, we do not have any spare money to pay for private pensions.  No doubt some grumpy-pants will make comments about having three children being our choice, but answer this - in the future, whose taxes will pay for roads, schools, hospitals, and even, dare I say it, subsidising feckless crumblies?

On this cheeful note, I intend to go and do despicable things to a turkey - it will make me feel better (I think this is known as displacement therapy...)

Joyeux noel a tous

Fi

 

[/quote]

Hi, Fi, (?)

           I'm sorry I did not make myself clear, I was refering only to state pensioners, who all should have a livable pension in keeping with what they have had taken by the state in contributions; This should include , if a truly sufficient state pension is not affordable for all, additional means- tested  benefits for all whose income justifies them ,wherever they happen to live. No-one,including you, should have to need a private pension .

            BTW I had 4 children in the 60s, and because my wages as a fireman only just covered the mortgage and fuel and other essentials , I frequently had to do a day's casual work on my "day off" to put food on the table  the same evening .

            I dare say you have, until recently, used the roads etc; paid for by myself,who no longer uses them, and my 4 children ,now in their 40s,  and the 4 of their children who are now working and paying taxes

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I am officially a Grumpy Pants and stand corrected!  Apologies for misunderstanding, but I have suffered from accusations of self-indugence for having children in the first place so I am a little touchy on the subject.  And yes, I quite agree, if you pay into a system you should get a decent return on your investment - sadly government(s) do not seem to be the best at financial management, being at the beck and call of big business rather than that of the electorate who put them in their position of authority in the first place .... Think turkey, think self-seeking windbag politican - that's better!

Parsnips, have a great Christmas and a peaceful New Year

Fi (short for Fiona - but I think I'm in trouble if I get the full name - all my parents' fault!)

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Dear Benjamin

Its slow here as well in the Vendee.  As you probably know I do a bit with the law and have done for some 40 years.

Whilst you may have heard what you think you heard the original agreement with the Chelsea was as I understand your posting £3k at £50 per month.?  Yes?

So we are saying that some 16 years later the Chelsea are getting back into the equasion and now demanding their original £3k back plus interest for the 16 years and this amounts to £81k or thereabouts.  And they are forcing the sale of the current house.

All of this begs a question how come someone who has had a home repossessed is able to obtain a mortgage.  There are time limitations on civil debts and thus I say to you there are so many things here that neither you or I know about and I bluntly would not believe anything that I am told until I see the documents.

Of course this is the Society that offers you 6% of t he mortgage as cash back when you take out a mortgage.  No such thing as a free lunch.  As a starting point in matters of mortgages there is a major case involving Barclays Bank but this is not the forum or the time of the year for such a discourse.

Best wishes to everyone and have a peaceful time over the festive season.

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