rothrugby Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 We don't have an E form, therefore are not exempt from social charges. For 5 years, all 3 social taxes have been levied on our interest , but only CRDS has been levied on our private pension income. We had read the back of the Avis des Contributions Sociales which says that only CRDS is levied on pension income earned abroad. We have been completing the declaration exactly as per your advice- see below-, which is identical to the advice received from 2 tax offices."However, if your heathcare cover is under couverture maladie universelle (CMU) and you are paying your quarterly 8% health contributions, then your pension will be subject to social charges. If this is the case, then as well as entering your pension(s) in box AS/BS on form 2042, you additionally need to enter the amount of your pension in section VIII of the 2047 and transfer the total to box TL (page 4, section 8) on form 2042. d on pension income "However, everything I've read recently tells me that both CRDS & CSG should be levied on private pension income but this has never happened to us. Can anyone out there tell me why?? I am confused.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Avery Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 [quote user="rothrugby"] We don't have an E form, therefore are not exempt from social charges. For 5 years, all 3 social taxes have been levied on our interest , but only CRDS has been levied on our private pension income. This is correct We had read the back of the Avis des Contributions Sociales which says that only CRDS is levied on pension income earned abroad. We have been completing the declaration exactly as per your advice- see below-, which is identical to the advice received from 2 tax offices."However, if your heathcare cover is under couverture maladie universelle (CMU) and you are paying your quarterly 8% health contributions, then your pension will be subject to social charges. It is, CRDSIf this is the case, then as well as entering your pension(s) in box AS/BS on form 2042, you additionally need to enter the amount of your pension in section VIII of the 2047 and transfer the total to box TL (page 4, section 8) on form 2042. d on pension income "However, everything I've read recently tells me that both CRDS & CSG should be levied on private pension income but this has never happened to us. Nor anyone else that we know of. There are notes that suggest that as well as CRDS, both CSG and prelev sociale should be charged on private pensions from abroad (and may be at some time in the future), but at the moment they are treated as if earned in France and so exempt from these other two charges.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 Hi, As you are paying into the CMU you may not be aware that you can claim an allowance against tax for your cotisations.Put the total paid in Box DD "deductions diverse" of the 2042 and send a copy of the attestation you receive from ASSEDIC .Alongside the entry at DD write "CMU-CGI,art.156-II,4°,10°et11°" I did this all the years I was paying CMU and had no problems--although the "expert" on "The Connexion" told me it was not possible,I preferred to take the advice of "Le Particulier" a french legal and rights magazine of long standing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 Why would rothrugby have an attestation from ASSEDIC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Avery Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 [quote user="parsnips"]Hi, As you are paying into the CMU you may not be aware that you can claim an allowance against tax for your cotisations.Put the total paid in Box DD "deductions diverse" of the 2042 and send a copy of the attestation you receive from ASSEDIC .Alongside the entry at DD write "CMU-CGI,art.156-II,4°,10°et11°" I did this all the years I was paying CMU and had no problems--although the "expert" on "The Connexion" told me it was not possible,I preferred to take the advice of "Le Particulier" a french legal and rights magazine of long standing. [/quote]Who are ASSEDIC and what attestation is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rothrugby Posted April 14, 2009 Author Share Posted April 14, 2009 Hi, We don't have such an attestation- thanks anyway. And thanks to people for getting back to me- I thought I was losing my mind. I read all these financial experts and they tell me I should be paying CSG on my pension income and, like you say, I don't know anyone who is!Another quick comment- the financial guy at connexions has published a help guide on completing a tax form and he is telling people who do not have to pay CRDS- they've got an E121- to enter their pension in Section V111 of 2047 & carry it forward to 2042 box TL. He says that this is an exemption box. I've been in contact with them to say I think they are wrong but they know better than the Impots!! Can't wait for September when people's bills roll in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 [quote user="Ron Avery"][quote user="parsnips"]Hi, As you are paying into the CMU you may not be aware that you can claim an allowance against tax for your cotisations.Put the total paid in Box DD "deductions diverse" of the 2042 and send a copy of the attestation you receive from ASSEDIC .Alongside the entry at DD write "CMU-CGI,art.156-II,4°,10°et11°" I did this all the years I was paying CMU and had no problems--although the "expert" on "The Connexion" told me it was not possible,I preferred to take the advice of "Le Particulier" a french legal and rights magazine of long standing. [/quote]Who are ASSEDIC and what attestation is that? [/quote]Hi, Sorry ,I got my acronyms crossed! I meant URSSAF. Anyone who pays cotisations under CMU gets a documment after the end of the tax year showing how much they paid in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Avery Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Anyone who pays cotisations under CMU gets a documment after the end of the tax year showing how much they paid in. Really?? And so you just enter this figure on the tax form and get a rebate for it when the employed don't get any allowance for their cotisations? Just because you got away with it does not make it right does it? For once The Connexion bloke was right, IMHO its an ineligible and inappropriate claim, that allowance is not appropriate for your situation if you were on CMU Base. Its no different as if I claimed for three ficticious kids (as one pillock down the english bar claimed he did) and got a tax rebate for a few years but that does not make it right does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 [quote user="Ron Avery"]Anyone who pays cotisations under CMU gets a documment after the end of the tax year showing how much they paid in. Really?? And so you just enter this figure on the tax form and get a rebate for it when the employed don't get any allowance for their cotisations? Just because you got away with it does not make it right does it? For once The Connexion bloke was right, IMHO its an ineligible and inappropriate claim, that allowance is not appropriate for your situation if you were on CMU Base. Its no different as if I claimed for three ficticious kids (as one pillock down the english bar claimed he did) and got a tax rebate for a few years but that does not make it right does it? [/quote]Hi, You really do get worked up don't you! The reason employed people don't claim this is because their health cotisations are deducted from pay before it is taxed--as is NI in the UK.I quote the explanation given by "Le Particulier": "Les cotisations sociales qui se rapportent à une activité professionnelle sont généralement déduites du revenu professionnel correspondant. Il n'y a donc pas lieu de les déduire une seconde fois. Toutefois , lorsqu'elles n'ont deja été déduites du revenu professionel, le contribuable peut déduire ces cotisations sociales de son revenu global.... Les cotisations déductibles: ..........des cotisations versées au titre de la Couverture Maladie Universelle (CMU) , pour les risques maladie et maternité." As I have said "Le Particulier " is a respected publication of long standing and I am prepared to accept their interpretation of the original texts which I have found , but which in typical french fashion are extremely ambiguous and confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rothrugby Posted April 14, 2009 Author Share Posted April 14, 2009 Hi, This looks interesting. I have checked the notes for the 2042 and it clearly states that you can deduct these cotisations from your income as a legitimate deduction. You can not deduct payments to a mutuelle.I will talk to my contact at Impots and determine if this is a correct inter[:)]pretation. I will post a reply as soon as I know something, but it may take a few weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Avery Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 "because their health cotisations are deducted from pay before it is taxed--as is NI in the UK." Are they? According to HMRC NI is calculated on the gross pay. IE, NI is not deducted before taxable pay is calculated, only pension contributions are deducted from gross pay to achieve taxable pay.Given that statement is wrong, are you sure about the way it works in France? If its the same as the UK then your quote which suggests that you can claim CMU cotisations against tax falls at the first hurdle. Not to mention the second hurdle which suggests that this "allowance" if it does exist, only applies if you are "employed" anyway.[8-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 [quote user="Ron Avery"]"because their health cotisations are deducted from pay before it is taxed--as is NI in the UK." Are they? According to HMRC NI is calculated on the gross pay. IE, NI is not deducted before taxable pay is calculated, only pension contributions are deducted from gross pay to achieve taxable pay.Given that statement is wrong, are you sure about the way it works in France? If its the same as the UK then your quote which suggests that you can claim CMU cotisations against tax falls at the first hurdle. Not to mention the second hurdle which suggests that this "allowance" if it does exist, only applies if you are "employed" anyway.[8-)][/quote]Hi, It's apparent from what you have written above that you you haven't understood what you have read/ been told--I assume you are competent in french--if so read my post again , without any pre-conceived bias. Forget about the UK and NI ,I mentioned that to try to get you to understand. Your one-man campaign in support of the french tax authorities is commendable, but would be more effective if you dealt more in facts and less in prejudices. Try doing some research-everything is available on the internet. As for your friend at the english bar, I suggest you denounce him publicly for the cheat and criminal that he undoubtedly is--but if as I suspect, you are less "forthright" in a face to face situation than you are in the anonymity of the internet ,I suggest two possible courses of action ; A. Find a better bar with more congenial company, or B. Practice the time-honoured french tradition of the "delation"--ie. grass him up to the tax authorities by way of an anonymous note. Either way is a better method of dealing with your justified anger than to take it out, by proxy, on innocent by-standers like myself , who are merely informing people of their legitimate rights ;as I wrote to the "connexion expert" on this subject-it's the taxmans job to rule on these matters (not yours) -and if the declaration is clearly made giving all relevant information, as mine always was , then I can not be said to have "got away" with anything. I have seen suggestions from others that you may be a "wind-up merchant", I hope not , because that is awaste of both your time and mine. Your next post will reveal whether or not you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Driver Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 To be fair to Ron, your brief quote states "lorsqu'elles n'ont deja été déduites du revenu professionel, le contribuable peut déduire ces cotisations sociales de son revenu global...."Ron has clearly translated 'revenu professionnelle' as being employment income and in the absence of any reference to revenus de remplacement, he seemed to be querying whether this represented a particular limitation in terms of non-employment income such as pensions. Perhaps you have a different interpretation that would help him in his understanding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Avery Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 ParsnipsOh dear true colours coming out eh?. Get caught out twice and out comes the abuse. " I didn't mean ASSEIDIC I meant URSSAF" "I didn't mean that the UK is the same as France and didn't mean to confuse by quoting the UK." Do you really know what you mean apart from you think that an obscure tract gives you the right to claim back CMU payments against tax which you admit is confusing. Wouldn't it be better instead of speading this as fact that you got the tax office to confirm its fact However, as you have clearly shown that you don't even know or understand the basic deduction rules of UK income tax let alone French why would anyone think that you know a hoot about French tax?[:$] Thanks SD for the support but I fully understood the heavily editted tract he produced, Its still rubbish and does not apply to inactifs as he very well knows. It may have some relevance to those who are taxed in the UK and pay NI but no doubt he'll now tell us that was what he meant as well.[:@] EDIT --but if as I suspect, you are less "forthright" in a face to face situation than you are in the anonymity of the internet...........And you live where exactly? You don't even have the balls to say if you live in France!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 [quote user="Ron Avery"]ParsnipsOh dear true colours coming out eh?. Get caught out twice and out comes the abuse. " I didn't mean ASSEIDIC I meant URSSAF" "I didn't mean that the UK is the same as France and didn't mean to confuse by quoting the UK." Do you really know what you mean apart from you think that an obscure tract gives you the right to claim back CMU payments against tax which you admit is confusing. Wouldn't it be better instead of speading this as fact that you got the tax office to confirm its fact However, as you have clearly shown that you don't even know or understand the basic deduction rules of UK income tax let alone French why would anyone think that you know a hoot about French tax?[:$] Thanks SD for the support but I fully understood the heavily editted tract he produced, Its still rubbish and does not apply to inactifs as he very well knows. It may have some relevance to those who are taxed in the UK and pay NI but no doubt he'll now tell us that was what he meant as well.[:@] EDIT --but if as I suspect, you are less "forthright" in a face to face situation than you are in the anonymity of the internet...........And you live where exactly? You don't even have the balls to say if you live in France!!![/quote]Dear Ron, Where does all that anger come from, I live in south charente maritime, and have done for the past 16 yrs, I would love to meet up for a chat if you're nearby. When I was younger I worked as a tax officer in the Inland Revenue (as it was then), I may be out of date on UK tax ,but I still understand the principles.During that time I have also paid, and studied, the french tax system. As for "obscure tracts" I think you must agree, that french tax law consists entirely, for most people, of "obscure tracts".The sense of the quoted "tract" as I (and "Le Particulier" and , apparently ,my tax office),see it, is that where someone is not employed or engaged in commercial activity and therefore has no "professional"(in the french sense this means any activity engaged in for gain including employment) income from which sociale charges are deducted or paid before calculating taxable income , they can deduct a number of different cotisations( I edited these as they were numerous and irrelevant to UK nationals) from their global income ; the point being that such a provision can apply ONLY to "in-actifs".You say I should get the tax office to confirm my contention as a fact. Surely my entering(as I always did )on 2042 box DD "cotisation CMU, -CGI,art.156-II,4°,10°et11°--these being the exact references to the relevant section of the Code General des Impots-,and joining my URSSAF attestation, was sufficiently putting my cards on the table for them to know exactly what I was claiming? They also had details of all my other income (pension) and circumstances.The fact that it was always allowed means either that a succession of tax officials were wrong, or that the policy of that particular tax office was mistaken-both possible scenarios - or, to my mind most likely, I was correct.In any event it was only an allowance against taxable income, not a credit, so the final benefit was marginal , certainly in my case as I usually paid no tax, or not above the first "tranche".Certainly not enough to inspire the sort of passion that has been expressed here.I would like to know, why such an urge to give succour to the french tax system, which is quite patently able to take care of itself? I have tried here to be moderate in my response, as I agree with the Moderator's comment , let's save our fury for the numerous targets which merit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 I say chaps, this is a serious and useful thread, please don't derail it by resorting to insults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Avery Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 "The fact that it was always allowed means either that a succession of tax officials were wrong, or that the policy of that particular tax office was mistaken-both possible scenarios - or, to my mind most likely, I was correct." Parsnips, I fully accept that what you have quoted is shown on the website of Le Particulier which is the website of a group of independant journalists who claim to assist in making sure people know their rights. I also accept that you have made claims on the basis of this "advice" entering your CMU cotisations into other deductions in box DD. Although you don't actually say that you received any reduction in tax or that your RFR was reduced as a result, can we assume that you did?The impots section of their website does indeed say that it is possible to make deductions against global income of certain voluntary cotisations which as you say are largely irrelevant to the UK immigrant, it does also say that this can include contributions to the CMU for those not covered by a profession. However, the tract that I read does not explain under what circumstances "inactifs" can legally make these deductions.My concern is purely and simply that this has not been the advice of the SW tax office nor of the well known "Ex-pat" Financial "experts" or is published in any other medium, Forum or journal. It may be that a large number of Brits do not pay CMU by virtue of an E form of one sort or another so its not been relevant to large numbers of people. If you have futher information including the whole of the section from Le Particulier if that does indeed explain the circumstances under which these deductions can be applied that would assist us all in making sure that it is a legitimate entry on our tax forms before they arrive and there are not any other "conditions" for making these deductions such as having to registred with ANPE or receiving unemployment pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rothrugby Posted April 15, 2009 Author Share Posted April 15, 2009 Hi, I did say in my earlier posting that the Income Declaration notes do clearly state that CMU payments can be deducted so it's not just Le Particulier that mentions it. I also said that I would use my contact in the Impots to verify whther this is a legit deduction for non actifs and I will report back. Patientez! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 [quote user="Ron Avery"]"The fact that it was always allowed means either that a succession of tax officials were wrong, or that the policy of that particular tax office was mistaken-both possible scenarios - or, to my mind most likely, I was correct." Parsnips, I fully accept that what you have quoted is shown on the website of Le Particulier which is the website of a group of independant journalists who claim to assist in making sure people know their rights. I also accept that you have made claims on the basis of this "advice" entering your CMU cotisations into other deductions in box DD. Although you don't actually say that you received any reduction in tax or that your RFR was reduced as a result, can we assume that you did?The impots section of their website does indeed say that it is possible to make deductions against global income of certain voluntary cotisations which as you say are largely irrelevant to the UK immigrant, it does also say that this can include contributions to the CMU for those not covered by a profession. However, the tract that I read does not explain under what circumstances "inactifs" can legally make these deductions.My concern is purely and simply that this has not been the advice of the SW tax office nor of the well known "Ex-pat" Financial "experts" or is published in any other medium, Forum or journal. It may be that a large number of Brits do not pay CMU by virtue of an E form of one sort or another so its not been relevant to large numbers of people. If you have futher information including the whole of the section from Le Particulier if that does indeed explain the circumstances under which these deductions can be applied that would assist us all in making sure that it is a legitimate entry on our tax forms before they arrive and there are not any other "conditions" for making these deductions such as having to registred with ANPE or receiving unemployment pay.[/quote]Hi, My "avis" for the years in question shows the CMU allowed as "charges deductible du revenu global (10) deductions diverses ....déclaré ....xxx retenu....xxx total des charges deduites.................................xxx The section of "Le Particulier" is very long so I hope I will be allowed to edit a bit ,otherwise it'll take all day: Headed"-Les Autres Contributions Sociales"; "Si elles n'ont pas été prises en compte au niveau de vos revenus professionels, certains cotisations sociales peuvent etre déduites directement de votre revenu global imposable (CGI,art.156-II,4°,10°et11°). Cette hypothèse,assez rare, concerne surtout les contribuables qui n'ont plus d'activité professionnelle. Ainsi si vous n'avez perçu aucun revenu professionnelle en 2008 , vous pouvez tenir compte des cotisations versées à la Sécurité sociale en 2008, des cotisations d'assurance maladie-maternité des travailleurs non-salariésdes professions non-agricoles et des cotisations d'assurance contre les accidents et les malaises professionnelles des non-salaries de l'agriculture(DA 5 B-2428,N°32 et suiv.) Vous pouvez aussi déduire: vos cotisationsde couverture maladie universelle (CMU) pour les risques maladie et matérnité et vos cotisations volontaires pour l'invalidité et la vieillesse;"------- --a list of other types of special cotisations --students--handicapped adult children etc,etc, including.... "les rachats de cotisations d'assurance vieillesse effectués après votre depart en retraite.."......( NI class 3 contributions?--a discussion for another day!).........."Vous ne pouvez pas tenir compte des cotisations versées à une mutuelle ou à une compagnie d'assurances à titre facultatif et privé en vue de compléter les prestations des régimes légaux........" I do not see why we have to agonise over these things , I took the advice given in an authoritative source, I clearly indicated what I was claiming, I sent official "justicatifs", and I was given the allowance. The tax office had the option, with all the evidence in hand, to refuse it--which I would have accepted. If you have seen and accepted conflicting advice then you do not have to apply for it or advise others to do so.If we were to go into the minutiae of all the other items on the tax form we would never complete it on time . I rest on the fact that I have obtained this allowance by openly stating for what I was applying, and that it is for the tax office to rule on these matters. If someone applies in good faith and giving all the detail as I have, then the worse that can happen is that they will be refused the deduction. They won't be persued as frauds and criminals, so I don't see what all the fuss is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rothrugby Posted April 15, 2009 Author Share Posted April 15, 2009 Hi,I'm agreeing with you, honestly!I advise a lot of members of the Charente Limousine Exchange so I have to be sure. It would be a good bit of news for our members and may just take some people out of the tax paying situation so I'm all for it! However, I need to have an E mail or something from the tax authorities before I tell everyone. For instance, if I followed certain professional advice, our members would be putting their income in the wrong boxes!. Happy days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rothrugby Posted May 28, 2009 Author Share Posted May 28, 2009 Hi, I have an preliminary update on the issue of whether you can offset your Ursaff cotisations against your income on your tax declaration. An initial view is that this is a facility only open to those who employ others and pay their cotisations but it is still being fully investigated. I'll report back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suein56 Posted May 28, 2009 Share Posted May 28, 2009 [quote user="rothrugby"]Hi, I have an preliminary update on the issue of whether you can offset your Ursaff cotisations against your income on your tax declaration. An initial view is that this is a facility only open to those who employ others and pay their cotisations but it is still being fully investigated. I'll report back.[/quote]Well I have put our contributions to CMU down against DD for the first time this year and if it is not allowed then - presumeably - they will let me know. I did this because the email reply I received from our tax office in response to my query read as follows: (my italics)Les versements obligatoires ou volontaires de cotisations ouvrières desécurité sociale qui n'ont pas été déduites pour la détermination de votrerevenu catégoriel, à l'exclusion des cotisations versées à une mutuelle ou àune compagnie d'assurances pour compléter les avantages légaux et descotisations patronales sont déductibles du revenu global.Les seules cotisations déductibles sont celles que vous versez si vous neremplissez pas les conditions pour être assujetti à un régime obligatoireet ne disposez d'aucune protection sociale.Si tel est votre cas, les cotisations versées à la CMU peuvent être déduitesen charges déductibles (ligne 6 DD de la décalration d'ensemble desrevenus).Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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