menthe Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 Norman, you have mentioned Anglophone imperialism on another thread but I put it to you that the English language is so difficult that perhaps it doesn't come anywhere near being able to have imperialistic ambitions? Just take a look at this poem by a Dutch anglophile called Gerard Nolst Trenité: Dearest creature in creation, Study English pronunciation. I will teach you in my verse Sounds like corpse, corps, horse, and worse. I will keep you, Suzy, busy, Make your head with heat grow dizzy. Tear in eye, your dress will tear. So shall I! Oh hear my praver. Pray, console your loving poet, Make my dress look new, dear, sew it! Plus there are another 104 more lines..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherbanana Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 No, Norman, cultural and linguistic flexibility and adaptability in use which has led to the adoption of English cultures and languages worldwide. ( Please note my plurals) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted October 22 Share Posted October 22 12 hours ago, anotherbanana said: No, Norman, cultural and linguistic flexibility and adaptability in use which has led to the adoption of English cultures and languages worldwide. ( Please note my plurals) I am not sure that "linguistic flexibility and adaptability in use" are behind the replacement of Toussaint traditions by Halloween in France. I reckon it is more about commercialism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judith Posted October 22 Share Posted October 22 So do I NormanH!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherbanana Posted October 22 Share Posted October 22 And all those bunches of chrysanths. are not commercial, Norman? La Toussaint, the Day of the Dead is an autumn clean up festival of graveyards, not much more, part of a dead or dying Catholic tradition which replaced an older Autumn festival. It is largely irrelevant these days. And though I dislike Halloween it is a bit of fun for kids, but yes, very commercial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssomon Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 Returning to Menthe's topic, surely any foreign student of English can soon manage to pronounce "The rough and dough-faced ploughman coughed and hiccoughed through the streets of Scarborough" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
menthe Posted October 23 Author Share Posted October 23 ssomon, thank you for your post, I must try it out on some "native" speakers who I suspect would struggle! Also, my gratitude for bringing us back on topic because everyone else was going off piste! I posted on the "lighter side", hoping people would come on and give examples of how "easy" English is thought to be compared to French as well as other languages. I simply wanted to have a bit of a laugh (larff or laff?)with people and for them to enjoy those few lines I copied. I am often a bit put out when French people, after even a very few words from me, would immediately demand anglais? Yet I have English folk trying to speak to me in French when I unknowingly address them in French. I do speak French to everyone if I don't know them, such as for example, bonjour or excuser moi at the supermarket. I do this on the basis that here in France, almost everybody is going to be French! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 "The rough and dough-faced ploughman coughed and hiccoughed through the streets of Scarborough" That is more of a spelling problem that one of pronunciation. One of worst flaws in language teaching is to begin with the printed word rather that LISTENING to native speakers and repeating exactly what is heard. I believe that the first 2 years of learning a language should be without looking at anything written. After all children learn to speak before they learn to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 ssomon's example if read aloud to a French learner wouldn't be difficult to repeat. It is the spelling that would trip up a learner trying to read it aloud without having heard it. Think of the French town 'Mulhouse' read aloud by an English learner who had never heard it spoken as "MulOOOSE" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judith Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 Menthe, English for me is "easier" than French when you consider that there is no gender, adjectives do not agree (ie they are almost always invariable), and with one or two notable execptions, verbs hardly decline, and are much easier to handle. Plus we've pretty well dispensed with the subjeunctive entirely. Even word order can be varied without loss of understanding even when there is technically a correct way to do it. The worst thing for English learners would be different pronunciations of words spelt the same, or almost the same, as in Ssomon's example above, but even they can be learnt. French pronunication can be difficult at times even if the majority of words normally are pronounced the same almost always (the exception - there is always at least one) - place names. Meanwhile one highly erudite French friend who speaks reasonable English says that French is much more difficult than English! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le martin-pêcheur Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 At least in English, we don't have 8 words for the word "new" including plurals, and a few derivatives from those 8 too. My French friend tells me that when a French person asks for something the wording is very precise, but 8+ words.......🙂 Don't get me started on French words when the last letter(s) are never pronounced - c'est comme ça is the usual response🙂But we wouldn't want to live anywhere else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherbanana Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 Norman, I would hope that your view of English Language Teaching is substantially out of date, at least amongst teachers trained by British institutions. I must say that I came across some real horrors in my 35 years or so of ELTing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
menthe Posted October 24 Author Share Posted October 24 Now you see how seriously the French take their language. Did you think tics (ticks) are insects that can give you Lyme disease? Here are other tics for you to consider; https://etudiant.lefigaro.fr/vos-etudes/magazine/40238-mot-puristes/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-fr-fr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 19 hours ago, anotherbanana said: Norman, I would hope that your view of English Language Teaching is substantially out of date, at least amongst teachers trained by British institutions. I must say that I came across some real horrors in my 35 years or so of ELTing. I bet none of those years were spent in French classrooms🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherbanana Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 Would Belgian university classrooms count?The kids were the result of positively Wallonian backward teaching of English. Some change now though but not enough. However, teaching was a bonne planque pour élevé les gosses! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 https://www.education.gouv.fr/media/195717/download Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 Not much listening or pronunciation there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
menthe Posted October 25 Author Share Posted October 25 I should NEVER have passed the baccalauréat. In fact, your link makes me wonder how I ever got O level English! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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