Avis D'Imposition

[nectarine]

Mr. Nectarine and I went to the CPAM office this morning with our E121 (Mr. N. being a pensioner, and me listed as his spouse) to request Carte Vitale paperwork. All was in order but they requested an Avis D'Impositon from me .... I explained I'd worked in the UK but no longer worked, but wasn't of retirement age ... however I have an income in which I pay tax in the UK and complete an annual return (and, yes, we are going to go into the French tax system ... but I can only take just one piece of bureaucracy at a time). Anyway, she said it could be a letter from me but wouldn't explain what wording she wanted, and I'm wondering if she wants a current tax return from the UK.

She couldn't find us on her computer and I explained we weren't currently in the tax system. OK for monsieur, she replied, but she wants this Avis D'Imposition from me - pleae come back tomorrow with it.

Can anybody please enlighten me what piece of paper I should be taking back to her?

Many thanks all

[NormanH]

The French 'Avis d'Imposition' is a bit like the p 60 from  the UK which I suppose you get every year, except that it is also a bill in France., to be paid either later in the year or in instalments if registered for that.

It is the annual statement from the tax office of  the tax you have to pay based on what you have  declared for the previous year,   with a statement of your income (worldwide if you have declared income from abroad) .

You might try giving her your P 60

She would have expected you to have a French 'Avis'  from last year, which covered income in 2008. Just explain that you haven't made a declaration yet in France.

[Sunday Driver]

Mr. Nectarine and I went to the CPAM office this morning with our E121

The Pension Service would normally issue Mr Nectarine with two E121s, one of them showing you as a dependent beneficiary which allows you to register here in your own right. Registration under an E121 does not take into account income, so there is no requirement to produce a tax avis.

If you've only got the one E121 for Mr Nectarine (albeit listing you as his spouse), then it looks as if your CPAM are processing you as an 'ayant droit' under his registration.  To qualify as an 'ayant droit', you must not be working so they may be asking for a copy of your tax avis to check that there have been no earnings declared for you.

If you do have two E121s, then you need them to register you in your own right under your own 'dependent' form. 

 

[nectarine]

thank you for both replies. Yes, it is Mr. Nectarine's E121 listing me as his spouse. However, I do receive in my own name rental and other income from the UK on which I have been paying tax there. So should I take a copy of my last tax return to CPAM and, although I am not working, will they still consider me as an ayant droit even though I have rental income but no earnings from working?

Thanks for your replies. Madame at CPAM was rather intimidating - as I have found most French government receptionists normally are (put there to scare you off) - so I want to be better prepared tomorrow ... all replies welcome and thanks again.

[Will]

What they really want is evidence of your taxable income. So if you haven't got such evidence from France yet, they should be able to get the information they need from your most recent British tax documents, like Norman says.

[Sunday Driver]

In order to be considered as an ayant droit, you have to be completely supported by your spouse, so if you tell CPAM that you have independent means, then they are likely to reject you.

Simplest way out of this is to tell CPAM that you will be getting your own E121 then get Mr Nectarine to contact the Pension Service and ask them to supply a separate one for you.

 

[AnOther]

At the risk of being labelled 'agent provocateur' Nectarine, can I ask why you are only now joining the French health and tax systems. You seem to have been here for well over 2 years now [Www]

[NormanH]

Don't forget that tax is declared  for the previous year, so someone who has been here during 2009 and 2010 wouldn't have declared in France last year as that was for 2008..should declare this year for 2009 though even if it is zero [:)]

There are people who have had properties for some years, but not been resident until retirement.

[nectarine]

Sunday Driver - thanks for your reply but can I have my own E121 as I am under retirement age? I thought I had to be listed as a family member of someone entitled to an E121 and couldn't get one in my own right?

ANOther - fair point, not being in the tax system. Call it laziness, call it fear ... but when you move house, let alone country, there is so much to do. I seem to have spent the last year just writing change of address letters to every one and institution in my address book and completing forms. I reckoned that as at least I was paying tax somewhere then that could wait until I had room in my brain and teh courage to confront it. But I know I had a period of grace last year but don't I have until May this year to declare my 2009 income?

[Les]

Sunday Driver - thanks for your reply but can I have my own E121 as I am

under retirement age? I thought I had to be listed as a family member

of someone entitled to an E121 and couldn't get one in my own right?

I think the point is, that you contact the UK and ask for an E121 as a dependent on your spouse. then send that to CPAM.

[AnOther]

Nectarine, if you became resident in 2007, which I believe you did according to your early posts, then technically you should have declared in 2008, although it seems acceptable-ish and common practice only to declare after the first full year. Even so you should have declared in 2009 for 2008.

We arrived in august 2007 just like you, new house, new country, virtually zero language, yet despite me still commuting to UK for work we easily managed to get our CV's and do our first tax return in 2008, the only thing to fear is fear itself [;-)]

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="nectarine"]Sunday Driver - thanks for your reply but can I have my own E121 as I am under retirement age? I thought I had to be listed as a family member of someone entitled to an E121 and couldn't get one in my own right? [/quote]

No, you don't qualify for an E121 in your own right.  That's why Mr Nectarine has to ask the Pension Service to supply him with a second E121 naming you as a dependent. When he receives it, you simply go back to your CPAM and hand it over so they can register you under 'your' separate E121.

 

[NormanH]

In fact this seems to be about E121s, not really about "Avis d"Imposition".

As SD says you would be best not mentioning your income (as shown on your p60).

You might not then be considered as a dependent.

[nectarine]

just to update you ... went to CPAM and took my Self Assessment statement. It doesn't show income, just a statement of tax owed and paid for the year. Madame Hatchet-Features glared at me, at it, and reluctantly made a photocopy then told me she had everything she needed. So the papers were accepted. I'm shown as a family member on Mr. Nectarine's E121, rather than having one in my own right. So I should hang on and apparently some kind of confirmation takes about a week or two to come.

So thanks for all replies. Once this is done I shall bite the bullet and take a visit to our tax office, confronting yet another French Government Office Reception Battle-Axe. Do they have some kind of factory where they stamp them all out of the same mould ...?

[parsnips]

[quote user="nectarine"]just to update you ... went to CPAM and took my Self Assessment statement. It doesn't show income, just a statement of tax owed and paid for the year. Madame Hatchet-Features glared at me, at it, and reluctantly made a photocopy then told me she had everything she needed. So the papers were accepted. I'm shown as a family member on Mr. Nectarine's E121, rather than having one in my own right. So I should hang on and apparently some kind of confirmation takes about a week or two to come.

So thanks for all replies. Once this is done I shall bite the bullet and take a visit to our tax office, confronting yet another French Government Office Reception Battle-Axe. Do they have some kind of factory where they stamp them all out of the same mould ...?[/quote]

Hi,

     No, they don't come off a production line--in my 17 years dealing with french officialdom on a regular basis I have come across, at CPAM, and the tax office,  some evil old bags (for some reason it's usually women), but also some very friendly and helpful people .

     In some cases the ability to converse in reasonable french seems to make all the difference. The secretary at our mairie (who some of the brits think is called "Marie"),has been described by them as very miserable and unhelpful, whereas I have found her all sweetness and light. It's the same as anywhere else ,everyone's different ,but most people (even officials) respond to an open and friendly approach.

[NormanH]

I find charm works wonders [:D]

[mint]

So, Norman, you've gone past page 2 of How to Win Friends and Influence People, then?

Only joking PLUS, I feel really bored this evening..............I think it's a bit too warm![:-))]

[eleve]

Hello, I'm new to this forum. At risk of giving myself away as being a complete imbecile, I need to ask: Am I supposed to be in the French tax system in spite of not working here? My family and I moved here from Canada in Sept 2008 (with my Dutch passport). We still work for a Canadian company (online), so I we thought we didn't have to submit a French tax return. However, right now I'm desperately trying to get medical insurance for me, my husband and my 3 kids via CMU (Couverture Maladie Universelle). The CMU app asks for our Avis d'Imposition (which of course we don't have, and we don't have our Notice of Assessment for 2009 from Revenue Canada yet either) so... here I am stumbling upon this forum. If the answer is yes, we should be submitting some kind of French tax declaration, can you tell me how we go about doing this? Thank you so much for your help.

[NormanH]

You should  submit a French tax return of you are resident here  even if you don't earn anything here. Read about it here

http://www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/dgi/public/particuliers.impot;jsessionid=VP1CF0LO1FFT3QFIEMQCFFWAVARXAIV1?espId=1&pageId=part_impot_revenu&impot=IR&sfid=50

If you wish to declare on paper you can ask for a form from your local tax office, remenbering to ask for the extra form for foreign earnings.

The declaration made this year is for 2009, and should include your worldwide earnings.

You won't get an 'Avis' before June/July this year, so this won't be any use for the present situation.

I presume the 'Avis' required is for the purposes of calculating your contributions so you really need to have some proof of earnings. Do you have monthly pay slips for example, or your Canadian tax return?

There are others on the Forum more experienced than I am on the business of living in France and working on-line for a foreign company.

[parsnips]

[quote user="eleve"]Hello, I'm new to this forum. At risk of giving myself away as being a complete imbecile, I need to ask: Am I supposed to be in the French tax system in spite of not working here? My family and I moved here from Canada in Sept 2008 (with my Dutch passport). We still work for a Canadian company (online), so I we thought we didn't have to submit a French tax return. However, right now I'm desperately trying to get medical insurance for me, my husband and my 3 kids via CMU (Couverture Maladie Universelle). The CMU app asks for our Avis d'Imposition (which of course we don't have, and we don't have our Notice of Assessment for 2009 from Revenue Canada yet either) so... here I am stumbling upon this forum. If the answer is yes, we should be submitting some kind of French tax declaration, can you tell me how we go about doing this? Thank you so much for your help.[/quote]

Hi,

      No-one arriving in France after October 2007 is eligible to join the CMU health insurance (except in certain ,very special, circumstances--such as the death of the breadwinner). You are required to provide an adequate private insurance cover for your family. For more information contact www.exclusivehealth.com  website.

      The advice about submitting a french tax declaration still stands , of course.

[Will]

Presumably the online work you are carrying out for a Canadian company is being done while you are in France? If so, you should be declaring it in France, and, as you presumably spend more time in France than Canada, The Netherlands or anywhere else, you should be paying social security contributions based on that employment income.

How you do this, and what you pay, depends on whether you are an employee or self-employed/freelance, the type of work, and the level of your earnings. There are several options but none of them are cheap.

As the previous answers indicate, as a French resident you are obliged to declare your worldwide income, though if it has been correctly declared and taxed elsewhere you should not be taxed on it again. As this would be your first French tax declaration you will have to do it on paper; once this has been processed you should be able to make future declarations online.

[parsnips]

[quote user="parsnips"][quote user="eleve"]Hello, I'm new to this forum. At risk of giving myself away as being a complete imbecile, I need to ask: Am I supposed to be in the French tax system in spite of not working here? My family and I moved here from Canada in Sept 2008 (with my Dutch passport). We still work for a Canadian company (online), so I we thought we didn't have to submit a French tax return. However, right now I'm desperately trying to get medical insurance for me, my husband and my 3 kids via CMU (Couverture Maladie Universelle). The CMU app asks for our Avis d'Imposition (which of course we don't have, and we don't have our Notice of Assessment for 2009 from Revenue Canada yet either) so... here I am stumbling upon this forum. If the answer is yes, we should be submitting some kind of French tax declaration, can you tell me how we go about doing this? Thank you so much for your help.[/quote]

Hi,

      No-one arriving in France after October 2007 is eligible to join the CMU health insurance (except in certain ,very special, circumstances--such as the death of the breadwinner). You are required to provide an adequate private insurance cover for your family. For more information contact www.exclusivehealth.com  website.

      The advice about submitting a french tax declaration still stands , of course.

[/quote]

Hi,

      As Will says ,once you are signed up to the french health system through your employment, you will get cover that way. As this may take some time to finalise, you should consider taking a short-term private policy to cover your family in the meantime.

[eleve]

[quote user="NormanH"]You should  submit a French tax return of you are resident here  even if you don't earn anything here. Read about it here

http://www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/dgi/public/particuliers.impot;jsessionid=VP1CF0LO1FFT3QFIEMQCFFWAVARXAIV1?espId=1&pageId=part_impot_revenu&impot=IR&sfid=50

If you wish to declare on paper you can ask for a form from your local tax office, remenbering to ask for the extra form for foreign earnings.

The declaration made this year is for 2009, and should include your worldwide earnings.

You won't get an 'Avis' before June/July this year, so this won't be any use for the present situation.

I presume the 'Avis' required is for the purposes of calculating your contributions so you really need to have some proof of earnings. Do you have monthly pay slips for example, or your Canadian tax return?

There are others on the Forum more experienced than I am on the business of living in France and working on-line for a foreign company.

[/quote]

Thanks Norman, and others. I read through the info on Norman's link above, that was very helpful.  Any idea how I can find my local tax office?  I.e. a website with addresses?

As for medical coverage, perhaps I should start a separate thread for that? Not sure about the etiquette.

Parsnips - I'm surprised to hear about the CMU not being a possibility - when I called the CPAM hotline a month or so ago, after hearing my story they told me to go to the nearest CPAM office and apply for CMU. I did try your link www.exclusivehealth.com but that domain is currently for sale, so nothing there at the moment but advertising...

[eleve]

Hi everyone, I've started a new thread for the health insurance issue, it's called Health

insurance for Canadians living permanently in France. Thanks again for your help

[suein56]

[quote user="eleve"]... I did try your link www.exclusivehealth.com but that domain is currently for sale, so nothing there at the moment but advertising... [/quote]

Not that I have anything to do with them but I think the site is:

http://www.exclusivehealthcare.com/

and it is in operation and fully functioning.

Sue