D'Imposition Prelevements Sociaux - Right or Wrong

[Rides]

We have just received a demand for the above tax but have never received one in the past.  We are on a low income of state pensions and a very small private pension and are below the limit for income tax.  As far as I can make out we have been charged 0.50% of our total income.

Do we have to pay this tax? 

Thank you in advance.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Rides"]

We have just received a demand for the above tax but have never received one in the past.  We are on a low income of state pensions and a very small private pension and are below the limit for income tax.  As far as I can make out we have been charged 0.50% of our total income.

Do we have to pay this tax? 

Thank you in advance.

[/quote]

Hi,

   It seems you have been wrongly  subjected to CRDS on your pensions. Send or take a copy of this letter to your tax office with a copy of your E121 or attestation and the demand, after entering your own details where appropriate;.  If they still refuse I have a copy letter

to send with all documents to the "Conciliatuer Fiscal for your

department.

    Model Letter CRDS on UK Pension.

                                                                                                           

( insert your address here)

     (here put address of your tax office-take from your declaration 2042)

     Madame/monsieur L'Inspecteur,

                 

Objet: reclamation CRDS et CSG.(insert years for which you claim)

(insert your full name and Numero Fiscal--bottom left front

                           page 2042.)

 

     Je vous adresse cette reclamation pour la CRDS et CSG que j'ai

payé sur mes pensions de retraite britanniques (voir copies ci-jointes).

       Je fonde cette reclamation sur l'ordonnance no. 2001-377

du 2 mai 2001(Circulaire DSS/SDFSS/5B No2001-350 du 17 juillet

2001relative à la mise en oeuvre de l'ordonnance No 2001-377 du 2 mai

2001 portant modification du critère d'assujissement à la contribution

sociale generalisée et la contribution au rémboursement de la dette

sociale.) qui prévoit, en ce qui concerne les revenus de remplacement

      

que,"seules les personnes domiciliées en France et qui sont  A LA

CHARGE, à quelque titre que ce soit d'un regime obligatoire français

       d'assurance maladie sont soumises à la CRDS et CSG".

                   

Ma demande depende du sens des mots"A LA CHARGE": le dictionnaire

definite le mot "CHARGE" comme" tout ce qui impose une depense

d'argent".

  

        Nous sommes inscrites à la CPAM par moyen

de la formulaire E121, sous la réglementation reciproque de la U.E.

concernante la santé: le system functionne

        comme ceci:

le gouvernment brittanique verse une cotisation ( plus grande que la

cotisation moyen des retraités français) au Centre de Securité sociale

des Travailleurs Migrants,11    Rue de la Tour des Dames,75436 PARIS

cedex 09 (tel. 01 55 07 48 90--fax 01 55 07 47 60)

       Donc

parce-que, enfin, mes frais de sante soient payées par le gouvernment

britannique, nous restons toujours A LA CHARGE du system de securité

sociale britannique

       la CPAM agitant seulement en tant que agent pour le gouvernment britannique.

 

     U.E. Council Regulation EEC No;1408/71 ART 14c prévoit qu'un

citoyen européen soit assujetti à un seul system de securité sociale

nationale à la fois, donc, on ne peut pas me       considerer comme

assujeti , ou à la charge , d'un regime obligatoire de securité sociale

français.

      

      En considerant mes arguments Monsieur/

Madame l'Inspecteur, je vous prie de bien vouloir porter attention à mon

dossier et de me faire remboursement de la CRDS pris en erreur.

         Je vous prie d'agréer Madame/Monsieur,mes sentiments les plus distinguées,

                                              (sign)   

         

[Rides]

Wow Parsnips - thank you ever so much for that.  I'll get on it right away.   I thought there had been some mistake.  Much obliged. 

[Sunday Driver]

Relying on unattributed dictionary definitions which can be subject to alternative interpretation is never a good idea when presenting a case in a legal context.  Rather than putting forward an 'argument' supported by a number of statements of varying relevance, a simple presentation of the key facts is usually more effective.

For example...

Messieurs,

Objet: reclamation de CRDS et CSG

Selon mon avis de contributions sociales de 2010, mes revenus de replacement étranger (pension de retraite) sont assujettis à CSG et CRDS d'un montant total de XXX €.

Voir un copie de l'avis ci-joint.

Article L 136-1 de la code de la sécurité sociale déclare que:

Il est institué une contribution sociale sur les revenus d'activité et sur les revenus de remplacement à laquelle sont assujettis :
1. Les personnes physiques qui sont à la fois considérées comme domiciliées en France pour l'établissement de l'impôt sur le revenu et à la charge, à quelque titre que ce soit, d'un régime obligatoire français d'assurance maladie;

Grace à mes contributions de sécurité sociales au Royaume-Uni, je suis titulaire d'un formulaire E121 (copie ci-joint) qui me donne le droit d'assurance maladie en France. Conformément à l'E121, le régime de sécurité sociale du Royaume-Uni paye une cotisation annuelle à France, donc je reste à leur charge plutôt que le régime obligatoire français d'assurance maladie.

Par conséquent, je remplis les conditions d'exemption énoncées à l'article L136-1.

Je vous prie d'agréer, Messieurs, mes sentiments les plus distinguées

[Rides]

Hi Sunday Driver,

Thank you for your imput and I am very grateful but just a little question.  What amount to I put in the XXX space?  How would I work out how much I'm supposed to pay?  And, what document do I send to them?  Sorry to be a numpty.

 

[Sunday Driver]

You are telling them that you've received a bill for contributions sociales on your pension totalling XXX and you are disputing this amount.

You are attaching a copy of the avis (so they have your various reference numbers, etc) plus a copy of your E121 which is the basis of your exemption.

The tax office will recalculate the bill and send you a new one.

 

[Rides]

Got it now.  Thank you soooooooooooooo much.  xx

[Judith]

We just got this demand too, last week sometime, I think, but hubby has only  just shown it to me.  We too are here on E121s, and I  put the statement about them on the tax form we submitted this year, and we've already paid the tax due.

My question is:  do we have to pay it and then try and get it back? or do we go and see the tax office.  This will have to be today or tomorrow as it is due for payment on 15/11.

Thanks for any advice

[Sunday Driver]

Go and see your tax office.  Given the nearness of the payment date, they may tell you to pay it and they'll send you a refund cheque in the post.

 

[mint]

SD, if they have taxed "revenus de capitaux mobiliers", does that mean they have imposed contributions sociales on our state pensions?

[Sunday Driver]

Revenus de capitaux mobiliers have nothing to do with state pensions.  What does it say on your avis?

 

[mint]

Revenus perçus par le foyer fiscal

Would that have anything to do with it, SD? 

[Judith]

SD,

Thanks for your speedy reply.  It's what I would have done, but hubby (even though I've shown him this thread)as it turns out has decided to pay and then argue the case.  Another trip to Narbonne is called for.....

But this does confirm to me that it is wrong, and so we'll fight it out when we have more than two moments to spare ..... he has just got his refund from HMRC, so there is enough to do it his way.

[NormanH]

If you are in l'Hérault shouldn't your tax  office be Béziers Ouest?

[mint]

SD, could you please look at my post which is just above Judith's?

[Judith]

[quote user="NormanH"]If you are in l'Hérault shouldn't your tax  office be Béziers Ouest?

[/quote]

Maybe, but we were in Aude when all this lot  happened, and we know where the tax office is in Narbonne ....we only  moved in the summer and it was sent to our old address (which since we still own, not having sold.....) we could continue to call our address ... we will go to Narbonne first.....

[Sunday Driver]

[quote user="sweet 17"]SD, could you please look at my post which is just above Judith's?[/quote]

You need to look at your avis d'imposition prélèvements sociaux.  If your pension amount is listed in column two (CRDS) then you've been charged.

 

[mint]

Thank you, SD.

[Judith]

Finally found a moment to return to this:

our prelevements sociaux  says it is to be revenue capitaux mobiliers - is this bank interest??

Confused because the figure for capitaux mobiliers  on this form is not the same as on the tax form - where it is described as revenues perçus par le foyer fiscal, capitaux mobiliers.

Could someone explain what is happening and what the difference is, if any, and why different amounts?

After montant a payer on the Prelevements sociaux form it gives montant de la CSG déductible  pris on compte pour l'imposition des revenus perçus en 2010 .  It says indicative only and will be shown on next tax form, but I still don't understand what is going on here.

This ties in with my previous post which I never replied to (sorry S17), because the PS form arrived and took over, but I am still confused by how the income tax is worked out and how it relates to the PS form.  Is there a simple explanation any where? does anyone know?

[Rides]

Sorry, but I need help again.

I sent off my letter with enclosures as kindly advised and given by Sunday Driver.  I have just received a reply which gives me 15 days to provide the following information if my appeal is to be considered.

De bien vouloir me faire parvenir
  -  Les justificatifs des versements (CSG et CRDS)
aupres Des Organismes Sociaux (URSSAF etc.) effectues par les personnes fiscalement domiciliees en france.
-  Justificatif de votre regime obligatoire francais d'assurance maladie.

So, how can I provide proof of payments of whatever CSG's and CRDS's are when we just have our pensions and don't pay taxes in UK anymore - nor have done for several years.

Do they want to see our Attestations or Carte Vitales? 

Also, our total pension amount is shown in column two of the avis as Sunday Driver mentioned in a previous post.  Should it be in another column and does that mean we did something wrong on our tax form?  We do not pay tax on our pensions as they don't amount to anything worth taxing.  Our zero income tax form was received some time ago. 

I am very confused now and don't really know what they are asking for.  Can someone please help as I now have only 2nd Dec to respond as the 15 days are up from the date of the letter - which was the 17th but I only got it yesterday.

 

[NormanH]

Judith I can"t help with the first part of our question, (as far as I know these are things like investments interest on bank accounts etc, but why the different amounts , apart from if you have somethings exempt from Income tax, but not PS I don't know)

but as for

"After montant a payer on the Prelevements sociaux form it gives montant

de la CSG déductible  pris on compte pour l'imposition des revenus

perçus en 2010 .  It says indicative only and will be shown on next tax

form, but I still don't understand what is going on here."

This is the amount of the CSG paid this year that is allowable against next year's (2010) tax

On mine it comes filled in automatically on the pre-printed form that will come in Spring  2011.

[NormanH]

Rides it sounds as if they think you are on the CMU and thery are asking for evidence of  the payments made to URSSAF, and the proof of your obligatory Health Cover

  -  Les justificatifs des versements (CSG et CRDS)

aupres Des Organismes Sociaux (URSSAF etc.) effectues par les personnes fiscalement domiciliees en france.

-  Justificatif de votre regime obligatoire francais d'assurance maladie.

If in fact as a Pensioner you are covered by the e 121 or its recent replacement you don't have to pay those charges, because it the the UK that pays for your Health Care

You will need to make this clear to them

[Rides]

Thank you for your reply Norman.  We don't have CMU - we just have our carte vitales plus top up insurance like everyone else.  Should I write and tell them this?  Maybe because our income is under the tax limit they assume we have applied for CMU, but we never have. 

Do you have any suggestions as to how to word the letter - any advice would be welcome as I haven't done much in the way of letter writing in French.

Thank you ever so much.

[Judith]

NormanH

Thanks for that, so if the amount shown is allowable against next year's tax, how does that work??? 

We won't have that much bank interest now, used all our savings  up paying for the new house! 

It's the first time we done a "proper" declaration (as I was only here for 2 months of 2008, so not at all representative, so it's been a steep learning curve for 2009!!

[NormanH]

[quote user="Judith"]NormanH

Thanks for that, so if the amount shown is allowable against next year's tax, how does that work??? 

[/quote]

On next year's tax form it goes under 'charges deductible ' on the last page of the declaration. It will probably be pre-printed carried over from this year.

It is deducted from your income in calculating the taxable total.