Tax relief on compulsory private health cover ?

[suein56]

One of my friends settled in France in early 2008; after benefiting from an E106 for 2 years she now pays for complete private health cover. This will\continue until she receives her UK old age pension. Is there any way she can obtain any tax relief on these payments, as the cover is a compulsory requirement ? I am thinking of the tax relief that is allowed to the early retired, non-actives who pay 8% of their revenu fiscal de référence to CPAM to cover their contribution to health costs.

Any advice/info welcomed. Thanks.

Sue

[cooperlola]

Not as far as I know, but she will be exempt from social charges, just as though she still had her E-form..  When she fills in her tax form she should follow this note from the FAQs but adapt the wording a bit to reflect the fact that she has private insurance.

Q         I have a UK non-public sector pension - how do I declare this?

A         Company pensions and the UK old age state pension are entered (gross) on form 2047 section I. PENSIONS, RETRAITES, RENTES.  The totals then go across to box AS/BS on the 2042.  

 Finally, if your French healthcare cover is courtesy of an E-form, then you are exempt from social charges (contributions sociales) on your UK company and old age pensions.  So, on the 2047 section VIII  REVENUS DE SOURCE ÉTRANGÈRE SOUMIS EN FRANCE À L’IMPÔT SUR LE REVENU ET IMPOSABLES À LA CONTRIBUTION POUR LE REMBOURSEMENT DE LA DETTE SOCIALE (C.R.D.S.) - just write in 'Titulaire de formulaire E121 (or whichever E-form you have), donc je ne suis pas a la charge de l'assurance maladie' and leave the amount box blank.

Something along the lines of "J'ai l'assurance medicale privee, donc je ne suis pas a la charge.... etc."  (Somebody else will probably have a better idea on wording but I think that should work.[:)])

[cooperlola]

[quote user="suein56"]I am thinking of the tax relief that is allowed to the early retired, non-actives who pay 8% of their revenu fiscal de référence to CPAM to cover their contribution to health costs.

[/quote]What tax relief? 

[Boiling a frog]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="suein56"]I am thinking of the tax relief that is allowed to the early retired, non-actives who pay 8% of their revenu fiscal de référence to CPAM to cover their contribution to health costs.

[/quote]What tax relief? [/quote]

I was also going to ask that, never had any tax relief on my 8% payment in 9 years

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"][quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="suein56"]I am thinking of the tax relief that is allowed to the early retired, non-actives who pay 8% of their revenu fiscal de référence to CPAM to cover their contribution to health costs.

[/quote]What tax relief? [/quote] I was also going to ask that, never had any tax relief on my 8% payment in 9 years[/quote]D*mmit, BaF, because you were one of those on whom I was relying to tell me where I could get this money from.[:D]

[Sunday Driver]

The Notice to tax form 2042 contains the following comments regarding diverse deductions (box 6DD):

les versements de cotisations de sécurité sociale dans le cas exceptionnel où ils n’ont pas été déduits pour la détermination d’un revenu particulier. Les cotisations patronales de  sécurité sociale versées pour les employés de maison ne sont pas déductibles. Pour les rachats de cotisations de retraite, voir paragraphe « pensions ».

Vous ne pouvez pas déduire les cotisations versées à une mutuelle ou à tout autre organisme de prévoyance ou d’assurance lorsque l’adhésion est facultative.

The 8% of taxable income paid towards couverture maladie universelle is classed as a social security cotisation so it qualifies here.  In the case of someone who does not qualify for state assurance maladie, you would need to speak with the tax office to see whether a commercial health insurance policy which is required to satisfy legal residency criteria would be regarded as being optional or not.

 

[cooperlola]

And there's one of the others!

How nice, S/D, but equally - how batty!  Whoever dreamed up the idea that you get money back from the government because you've paid money to the government?  I'd say "only in France" but no doubt there are other places on earth.

Edit : I've just seen the big fat 0 in 6DD typed in on my pre-printed form.[:D]

[Sunday Driver]

It's because for everyone else in France, social security contributions are deducted from salaries leaving the net pay figure declarable for income tax purposes.  For the non-actives who are registered under CMU, this separate tax deduction makes up for that.

Edit:  So cross out the big fat 0 and write in the amount of CMU payments you've made. Add a short comment, such as 'CMU URSSAF plus your ref number'.

 

[cooperlola]

Thanks, m'dear, as per.  How do you want to take your commission?

[B]

[suein56]

[quote user="Sunday Driver"]

The Notice to tax form 2042 contains the following comments regarding diverse deductions (box 6DD):

The 8% of taxable income paid towards couverture maladie universelle is classed as a social security cotisation so it qualifies here. [/quote]

Exactly; thank you SD.

[quote user="Sunday Driver"] In the case of someone who does not qualify for state assurance maladie, you would need to speak with the tax office to see whether a commercial health insurance policy which is required to satisfy legal residency criteria would be regarded as being optional or not. [/quote]

Thanks again SD. That's what I said to my friend but I thought I would test the water by posting her query here.

Thanks to everyone for replying; it's great to have all this knowledgeable input.

Would have replied sooner but had to dash off and sort out someone's pc which was having a 'senior moment'; and have only just got back.

Sue

[cooperlola]

Please keep us posted on what happens.  I can imagine all sorts of opposition to this idea, but surely logic suggests that this should apply if the principle is that it's a statutory requirement?  It will be really interesting to know what the tax offices think.  Although I suppose you don't have to live here, is that what "optional" means?  Very interesting (not least the fact that I've been saved a bit of tax today.[:)])  Thanks for bringing the subject up, Sue.

[AnOther]

Playing devils advocate and expanding on Debs comment I would say that as nobody forced the OP to come and live in France (or stay beyond their E form entitlements) if private health care is an unavoidable cost of doing so then on what grounds would the French government be either willing or obliged to subsidise them ?

Interesting idea though and definitely ticking the 'Notify' box !

[suein56]

[quote user="AnOther"]Playing devils advocate I would say that as nobody forced the OP to come and live in France (or stay beyond their E form entitlements) ... [/quote]

In this case my friend was already in the process of buying her house here late in 2007 when the situation suddenly changed. She could not back out, even if she had wanted to.

I clearly remember receiving a letter from CPAM late in September 2007 saying our CPAM cover was being discontinued from the end of March 2008. Then having interesting discussions with our complémentaire re OH and I having to swap to private health cover from that date. Fortunately for us we had arrived in 2005 and paid into the system from early in 2006 so we had enough history behind us to be re-admitted to CPAM when they suddenly did yet another about-turn and decided those inactives such as we who had been in the system and paid their way could continue to contribute as previously. Those others, like my friend, have had to fund private cover.

Sue

[AnOther]

I quite appreciate the circumstances you describe however, again playing devils advocate, your friend could have pulled out at any time prior to signing the Acte but chose not to for his/her own reasons, likely financial I'd guess, so the same arguments apply, nobody forced him/her to move here. You could perhaps further argue that their case is weakened by them buying in the knowledge that they would have to pay for private insurance in due course.

I'm not being argumentative, just imagining myself in the place of the French tax man in the face of a claim for tax relief on the private health care costs.

[cooperlola]

We made lots of arguments for extending CMU to a later date for just this reason - the fact that some would be half way there and unable to pull out - but sadly to no avail, the minister wouldn't wear it.  In fact there are certain forum members on here who didn't make it over here because of the healthcare problems - some are still going back and forth between two homes as a result - they are, in a way, the lucky ones.  This may yet get solved if the European Commission gets its way but that is going very slowly.

Whatever, I'm sure that Sue's friend has to give this a go. 

Sue, if you need references to the law which makes PHI a statutory requirement, let me know.  S/he should bear in mind though, that the cover perameters are highly specified, and if s/he does stir something up, his/her policy may come under scrutiny.  Fine if it covers all that the law says it should, but if it's hospital only - for example - s/he may be opening a can  of worms s/he would prefer not to.  There's no reason this should happen, but I'd guess that if the tax office does think s/he has a case then they would want to have a good look at the policy concerned, if only to verify the cost.