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Tax forms - again...


Just Chris

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I have posted this on another forum, too...

Without wishing to appear completely helpless, I've received two tax forms - a pink 2047-K, and a blue form Revenus 2010.

They are part pre-completed (by the French revenue office), and I haven't a clue what to do with either of them. I have a private pension (for which I have a P60), and that's it.

There is money in the UK in a joint account, and which is frozen and to which I have no access, so I've no idea what (if any) interest has been earned..

My wife left me last November, she used to do everything financial (at her request), and has left me high and dry with nothing from previous years to go on.

I know it's a bit of a cheek, but can anyone assist, or at least point me in the direction of a simple method of working out what's what?

Chris
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Don't want to hi-jack this post but can some one just put me right. I thought that you had to submit forms (S1 Double Taxation Convention) to your local tax office as soon as you became resident in France. I did this and have had them returned as having sent them in too early. The letter says that I should send them in when I have filled in a French Tax form.

As we became resident here from 1 April 2011 does that mean that I don't need to get a tax form until next year(March I think the link said) fill that in-return it and then also submit the S1 form ?
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Mac, my tax office wouldn't take mine until I'd submitted my first tax return either.    You submit it this time next year and declare all income earned from 1.4.11 to 31.12.11.  You hand the Double Taxation Convetion form (used to be FD5, iirc) duly completed, with that first return and then the ball slowly begins to start rolling.
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[quote user="Mac"]Don't want to hi-jack this post but can some one just put me right. I thought that you had to submit forms (S1 Double Taxation Convention) to your local tax office as soon as you became resident in France. I did this and have had them returned as having sent them in too early. The letter says that I should send them in when I have filled in a French Tax form.

As we became resident here from 1 April 2011 does that mean that I don't need to get a tax form until next year(March I think the link said) fill that in-return it and then also submit the S1 form ?[/quote]

That's exactly it, Mac.

The idea is the French tax office can't certify your tax residence in France to HMRC in the UK until AFTER you have effectively certified that you are resident in France, by sending in a French tax return to them. You will then acquire a French tax reference number, which is needed on the S1. Other countries do things differently. But if you became resident in France only a few weeks ago, you can't send in a French tax return until this time next year, when you'll be declaring your French taxable income for the period from 1 April 2011 to 31 December 2011.

You'll get nowhere with HMRC until they get the S1 back from the central French tax office in Paris.

[edit - simultaneous post with Coops]

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Chris

The tax FAQs will tell you what to put in which boxes.  However, I can forsee that your major problem is going to arise if your o/h had any income which you aren't aware of  because she also has a tax liability in France until the date she left (assuming that she went back to the UK).  On the face of it, if you fill in the top of Page 2 of the blue form (where you put details of the change in your marital status - Section A1) and then just put your pension in the right place, then you've declared all the income you have earned in 2010 (remember it's the calendar year here, not the UK fiscal one so it's not the figure on your P60 which counts but actual earnings from 1.1.10 to 31.12.10).

But of course, any interest or further income of your wife's which you aren't able to declare because you don't know about it - could be liable for tax too.  What you're supposed to do about this and what you can do about this, I don't know.  I expect somebody does.  If not then I suggest you declare all your own income, your change in status etc, then explain your situation to your tax office.

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Oh, Lord...

Thanks Coops.

The account in the UK, though it's a joint account, has been frozen since she tried to take vast amounts of cash from it last November when she left to return to the UK, so although it is earning interest, neither of us can touch it until a divorce is resolved, and I don't have the details anyway.

I suppose all I can do is refer the Tax people to her last known address in the UK, and let them try and sort it out with her.

I had a premonition that this was going to be a sticky problem...

Chris
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Frankly I would go and see the tax officer and tell them what has happened. I have had to go and see them about my son who had a problem and was out of the country and it had got very complicated and they were very good about it, far better than I imagined to be honest.

 

Re that joint account in the UK. Even if it is frozen you should write to your bank and ask how much interest was earned and how much tax paid on it. Unless it was 'both to sign' then I cannot see why they cannot furnish you with that information, after all you are not asking to debit or credit the account, just obtain some facts about it.

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Yes, I'll go and see them. Unfortunately, the UK account was one of several in which she took a personal interest, and shifted things about from time to time, and between accounts - so we got the "best interest rates", there was rarely any pre-discussion, and the only reason I found out was because the bank rang and asked to speak to her, querying the amount that she wished to withdraw. Silly me, I don't even know which bank it was! So much for marital trust.

Chris
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I'm afraid I don't know much that will help you, but I know there is a legally recognised status called séparation de fait (separation in fact), and I believe that if this is established it may allow you to declare only your own income for tax purposes without being responsible for any income of your wife.

Even if I haven't got that quite right, I think it's something you should investigate.  I suggest you talk to a notary, who can tell you not only what the effect will be, but also how you actually go about it.  Also, of course, he may know a better alternative.

In my experience notaries (as opposed to lawyers) don't charge large fees for straightforward questions.

Good luck!

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Thanks Allanb, and Coops - the last account I was aware of was an online, off-shore one, but only accessible by her, through her own user name and password, and from her E mail address. It could have been Bradford & Bingley, Alliance & Leicester, or Santander, or they may even all be amalgamated now.

Chris
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[quote user="allanb"]In my experience notaries (as opposed to lawyers) don't charge large fees for straightforward questions.[/quote]

I can only echo Allan's wise words and add that where we live any interview with the notaire that does not result in any action, ie him/her not having to do anything such as write a letter etc, is free. If he has to 'ouvrir un dossier' then that is something else and that costs. My OH and I benefitted from a 1 hour and 1/2 in-depth interview with much advice given by him to us and at no cost to us at all. When I queried this the notaire - one of 4 in the étude - said: my advice is free but my actions bear a cost.

Just as an aside we live in a very non-rural, quasi-commercial, touristy location where I would have expected this meeting to bear a cost, but no, apparently not. It seems to have been the equivalent of the free 1/2 hour you could ask of certain solicitors in the UK.

Good Luck and please do ask for more help if you feel the need; there should usually be someone on here who can give a smidgeon of info.

Sue [:)]

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If she had them in her own name then you are sunk with getting the information, perhaps a court order could help.

 

I believe that she will still need to be on this french tax form, or do one of her own.

Now taking that into account, I would tell her a few things. I would tell her that she had to be on the tax form for 2010 and that they would have to know the amount of interest paid, as it is french law. I would also tell her IF she choses not to do so, that you will tell the french tax inspector that she is hiding money from them, possibly taxable money. I take it she isn't stupid, will she not realise the implications of this?

I have pm'd you.

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Notaires are also to some extent, tax collectors - at least a part of their remit is to ensure that the government gets its due in legal transactions.  Just another good reason to go and see one, imho.

As Idun so wisely says, your o/h has a legal obligation to declare her income too.  If you're feeling like it, you potentially have a good lever here to get her to co-operate.

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