Taxe habitation & fonciere after selling

[fromagebleu]

Hello

We sold our Fr holiday home after owning it for 16 years,  March 2022 - at a huge loss, but it was a relief to get away from the now excessive house taxes and have real holidays and not need to go to France to do cleaning, gardening ...

BUT we have now received invoices for both taxes and I cannot understand why the notaire seems to have done nothing to inform the tax offices of the sale.  is the seller supposed to sort this - how do I get the buyer to pay -  I understand I have a debt for part of this, but only when the owner!   In England completion of a house sale can't happen until such taxes are deducted- or proportioned out.

The house was sold in March 2022, and the two invoices are nearly 2000 euros - so a huge amount considering the value of the place!   and we cannot afford to pay this - husband says to ignore them, but I am nervous at visiting France and being stopped on arrival.

Any ideas of what to do ?  - is the notaire responsible for sorting this out?   somehow the seller must be paying as well? or are they?

Many thanks in advance

 

[DaveLister]

Both Taxe d'habitation and Taxe fonciere are paid by whoever owns a property on 1st January for that year. Selling it later in the year doesn't change your liability. It's true that a lot of Notaires will include a clause in the sale whereby the Taxe fonciere is split prorata but is is not a legal requirement as far as the tax authorities are concerned. For your notaire to do this your buyer would have had to agree in advance.

https://www.impots.gouv.fr/particulier/questions/jai-achete-vendu-un-bien-immobilier-cette-annee-dois-je-payer-une-partie-de-la

https://reassurez-moi.fr/guide/immobilier/taxe-habitation

[NormanH]

As Dave says you are  responsible for paying both these taxes, and if they aren't paid on time they carry a % penalty increase.

The owner of the property on the 1st of January  is liable for the whole of the Taxe d'habitation for the year EVEN IF  they move out on the 2nd of January.

The "Taxe foncière" may be split pro rata between buyer and seller as Dave has indicated, BUT if the seller pays a % that will have been credited to you by the Notaire at the time of sale, and now the bill is due.

In my case I get the bill for the TF in September and the  one for the T d'H in October but this may vary according to local offices.

 

 

[fromagebleu]

Many thanks all

It all seems so odd to me- if the the TFonc is proportioned out, which I assume it has been, and the t hab is now only paid by second homers why should I be paying for it when I no longer own it? and only owned it for part of the year?

and we are no longer in France and probably will not visit that often - or not at all.   Few would pay such large amounts when no longer visiting...

Any ideas anyone?

 

[menthe]

The bills relate to the current year.  Therefore if you sold this year, the bills run from 1st January to 31 December.  You pay for the year 2022 for if you lived there for the whole or for part of the year.

The taxe H is paid by the owner of the property and the taxe F is paid by the occupant.  Therefore you pay for all of the taxe H and a pro rata (usually) part of the taxe F. 

[menthe]

Sorry, my answer perhaps does not touch on the taxe H being no longer applicable for most people these days.  But I was inferring from you initial post that yours was a holiday home.  I don't know about holiday homes but perhaps an owner of a résidence secondaire will appear to talk to you about that side of things.

[DaveLister]

10 hours ago, fromagebleu said:

if the the TFonc is proportioned out, which I assume it has been, and the t hab is now only paid by second homers why should I be paying for it when I no longer own it? and only owned it for part of the year?

You owned it on the first of January therefore you are liable for the whole year. It might seem odd to you but it's the way it is. If you had bought another house in France its' TF & TdH  would have to be paid by the previous owner until January 1st 2023.

I've looked up the second home issue and you have no exclusions or reductions I'm afraid.

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F34715

I should warn you, late payment incurs a 10% surcharge.

[NormanH]

This is going round in circles when Dave and I have already explained it.

A worked example:  you say the two bills come to around 2000€, so:

Say 1200€ TF and 800€ T dH.

Suppose you leave at the end of June.

1)You owe 800€ T dh (because you were there on the 1st Jan and it is a second home so no exemption.)

2) If  the Notaire  arranged a pro-rata payment by the new owner  you have already  received 600€ in the sale account  for the new owner's part of the bills and there remains 600€ at your charge.... BUT you have to pay the whole 1200€ now,

the 600€ you owe plus the 600€ you received from the Notaire from  the new owner

3) If there was no pro-rata you owe 1200€ anyway

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by NormanH

[fromagebleu]

Thanks all - I do get it, it's just different here and we always kept a house here too so relate to the English way which means you pay for when you own the place.  And, Fr house rates seem extortionate if I compare the relative values of my ex-Fr house with our home here!

BUT as I have no longer a bank account in France (closed it as Fr banks charge for the pleasure of having your money) I am trying to pay on line via either a UK bank account or via a c card.   Not sure how to do this.   and deadline is tomorrow - someone advised me to burn the bills as they did when they left France, but I don't fancy doing that, just in case!

FB

[NormanH]

It shoud be possible to make a transfer from your your UK bank if you have the IBAN number.

 

I can understand you closing your French account if you have no property here, but my French account (Boursorama) is free so it can't be said to "charge for the pleasure of having your money"

https://www.boursorama-banque.com/banque/compte-bancaire

 

[Martin963]

But does Boursourama allow people who no longer have a French address to open an account?

[Martin963]

Just answered my own question - the application form seems to allow one to choose Royaume Uni.  I shall investigate further - thanks for the tip off NormanH.

[Martin963]

Sadly it seems that Boursorama only offer bank accounts for people abroad provided they are French: 

""La sélection d'un pays de résidence autre que France est réservée aux ressortissants français à l'étranger.""

 

(I'd got some way through the process before it came up with that message,   it's not clear when you start the sign up process).

 

[NormanH]

Pity about that as I find them very good. I suppose it might also be difficult for non British people to open a UK account at a distance, but as I have never tried I can't be sure..

[anotherbanana]

Doesnt that plaque say something about ‘ maison de la peste’ or is that ‘ pestiféré’?