Social charges on pensions if entering CMU via S1?

[woolybanana]

I am just trying to get this straight in my head. At present, being a few weeks under 65 I pay social charges on pension and other income which are made up of Contribution sociale géneralisée (8.2%), Contribution pour le remboursement de la dette sociale (0.50%) and Prélevement social and contributions additionnelles (3.60%).

Am I right in thinking that some of these are no longer payable when I reach 65, the official retirement age? If so, which, svp?

[mint]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, Wools.

OH is 80 and pays the lot, as you have ennumerated.

[cooperlola]

Sweets, he is exempt (as is the old wooly fruit).  From the tax FAQs: (for E-form, read S form)

Q: I have a UK non-public sector pension - how do I declare this?

A: Company pensions and the UK old age state pension are entered (gross) on form 2047 section I. PENSIONS, RETRAITES, RENTES.  The totals then go across to box AS/BS on the 2042.  

Finally, if your French healthcare cover is courtesy of an E-form, then you are exempt from social charges (contributions sociales) on your UK company and old age pensions.  So, on form 2047 section VIII  REVENUS DE SOURCE ÉTRANGÈRE SOUMIS EN FRANCE À L’IMPÔT SUR LE REVENU ET IMPOSABLES À LA CONTRIBUTION POUR LE REMBOURSEMENT DE LA DETTE SOCIALE (C.R.D.S.) - just write in 'Titulaire de formulaire E121 (or whichever E-form you have), donc je ne suis pas a la charge de l'assurance maladie' and leave the amount box blank.

However, if your heathcare cover is under couverture maladie universelle (CMU) and you are paying your quarterly 8% health contributions, then your pension will be subject to social charges. If this is the case, then as well as entering your pension(s) in box AS/BS on form 2042, you additionally need to enter the amount of your pension in section VIII of form 2047 and transfer the total to box TL (page 4, section 8) on form 2042.

That's it for private company and old age pensions.

[woolybanana]

Thank you Coops, I had read that but spotted an ambiguity which worried me a bit; of course, it says pensions are exempt if via an S form but the final paragraph seems to suggest that once in the CMU, then one has to pay.

Sweets, it seems that someone has been scre*ing you and your  husband out of quite a load of dosh. Maybe you need to go see someone post haste on your postillion.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

Thank you Coops, I had read that but spotted an ambiguity which worried me a bit; of course, it says pensions are exempt if via an S form but the final paragraph seems to suggest that once in the CMU, then one has to pay.

Sweets, it seems that someone has been scre*ing you and your  husband out of quite a load of dosh. Maybe you need to go see someone post haste on your postillion.

[/quote]Read it again!  It says if you're in CMU and  contributing 8% of your income....[Www]

[woolybanana]

OK, Coops, I misread it. Having just has what I hope is my final Social charges bill today, I would be keen to avoid paying it if possible, especially as there is comp health care to pay for.

[NormanH]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

Sweets, he is exempt (as is the old wooly fruit).  From the tax FAQs: (for E-form, read S form)

Q: I have a UK non-public sector pension - how do I declare this?

A: Company pensions and the UK old age state pension are entered (gross) on form 2047 section I. PENSIONS, RETRAITES, RENTES.  The totals then go across to box AS/BS on the 2042.  

Finally, if your French healthcare cover is courtesy of an E-form, then you are exempt from social charges (contributions sociales) on your UK company and old age pensions.  So, on form 2047 section VIII  REVENUS DE SOURCE ÉTRANGÈRE SOUMIS EN FRANCE À L’IMPÔT SUR LE REVENU ET IMPOSABLES À LA CONTRIBUTION POUR LE REMBOURSEMENT DE LA DETTE SOCIALE (C.R.D.S.) - just write in 'Titulaire de formulaire E121 (or whichever E-form you have), donc je ne suis pas a la charge de l'assurance maladie' and leave the amount box blank.

However, if your heathcare cover is under couverture maladie universelle (CMU) and you are paying your quarterly 8% health contributions, then your pension will be subject to social charges. If this is the case, then as well as entering your pension(s) in box AS/BS on form 2042, you additionally need to enter the amount of your pension in section VIII of form 2047 and transfer the total to box TL (page 4, section 8) on form 2042.

That's it for private company and old age pensions.

[/quote]

This looks like nonsense to me

Who has 'heathcare cover  under couverture

maladie universelle (CMU) and you are paying your quarterly 8% health

contributions, then your pension will be subject to social charges', if they have a Pension?? Surely they would be covered by an S Form?

[cooperlola]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="cooperlola"]

Sweets, he is exempt (as is the old wooly fruit).  From the tax FAQs: (for E-form, read S form)

Q: I have a UK non-public sector pension - how do I declare this?

A: Company pensions and the UK old age state pension are entered (gross) on form 2047 section I. PENSIONS, RETRAITES, RENTES.  The totals then go across to box AS/BS on the 2042.  

Finally, if your French healthcare cover is courtesy of an E-form, then you are exempt from social charges (contributions sociales) on your UK company and old age pensions.  So, on form 2047 section VIII  REVENUS DE SOURCE ÉTRANGÈRE SOUMIS EN FRANCE À L’IMPÔT SUR LE REVENU ET IMPOSABLES À LA CONTRIBUTION POUR LE REMBOURSEMENT DE LA DETTE SOCIALE (C.R.D.S.) - just write in 'Titulaire de formulaire E121 (or whichever E-form you have), donc je ne suis pas a la charge de l'assurance maladie' and leave the amount box blank.

However, if your heathcare cover is under couverture maladie universelle (CMU) and you are paying your quarterly 8% health contributions, then your pension will be subject to social charges. If this is the case, then as well as entering your pension(s) in box AS/BS on form 2042, you additionally need to enter the amount of your pension in section VIII of form 2047 and transfer the total to box TL (page 4, section 8) on form 2042.

That's it for private company and old age pensions.

[/quote]

This looks like nonsense to me
Who has 'heathcare cover  under couverture maladie universelle (CMU) and you are paying your quarterly 8% health contributions, then your pension will be subject to social charges', if they have a Pension?? Surely they would be covered by an S Form?
[/quote]Me!  Because my pension is an occupational one which I got from the age of 50.

 

(I didn't write this, btw, but I do understand it.)

[mint]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

Thank you Coops, I had read that but spotted an ambiguity which worried me a bit; of course, it says pensions are exempt if via an S form but the final paragraph seems to suggest that once in the CMU, then one has to pay.

Sweets, it seems that someone has been scre*ing you and your  husband out of quite a load of dosh. Maybe you need to go see someone post haste on your postillion.

[/quote]

Hm...part of OH's money comes from 2 annuities from money which he himself paid in, as he was self-employed.

I was advised, on here actually, that annuities are rentes viagères and I thought the prélèvements sociaux were calculated from those.

Can someone please tell me whether that is right or not?  Preferably BEFORE I send off the cheque that I've already made out!

[NormanH]

Ah so it would be better stated "people who have retired early, and so still have to pay health contributions because they are covered by the CMU will be subject to social charges on their pension.."

Now I understand, thanks

[mint]

Does no one know whether annuities are subject to these social charges?

Or should I start a new thread asking specifically about annuities?

Aaaarrrrggghhh, help me, somebody.....please!!!

[parsnips]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

Does no one know whether annuities are subject to these social charges?

Or should I start a new thread asking specifically about annuities?

Aaaarrrrggghhh, help me, somebody.....please!!!

[/quote]

Hi,

      Yes,  annuities  which are declared as "rentes viageres" are subject to income tax and CSG on the taxable portion.  This taxable proportion decreases according to the recipient's age when he first draws the annuity. When declaring the annuities on form  2042 you will have entered in the appropriate box 1AW to 1 DW.

[mint]

Thank you very much, Parsnips.

So, Wooly's question has no relevance for us....[:(]

[EmilyA]

Does anyone know how you deal with the timing of this? I have had my S1 since February and OH will get his in November. Do I have to say how long we have had them on next year's tax return? I realise I can go and ask the tax office, just wondered if anyone already knew?

[Sunday Driver]

The simple mention that you hold an S1 will suffice.

The month's income prior to you receiving your S1 in February will have been liable for CRDS, but given that it's only charged at a rate of 0.5%, the tax office won't be concerned about querying it and chasing you for a handful of euros.

 

[parsnips]

[quote user="EmilyA"]Does anyone know how you deal with the timing of this? I have had my S1 since February and OH will get his in November. Do I have to say how long we have had them on next year's tax return? I realise I can go and ask the tax office, just wondered if anyone already knew?[/quote]

Hi,

     I assume you have already been making declarations in France.  In your next declaration you should declare your UK state pensions along with any other pensions you receive on form 2042 at 1AS  and 1BS, and on form 2047 at page 1 "pensions, retraites, rentes....", and also put a note in page 4 sec VIII "titulaire de formulaire S1 pas assujetti a la CSG et CRDS"

[chirpy]

When I changed jobs at 51 years, I was made to put pension into an annuity.

I arrived in France and was told they did not recognise an annuity as a pension and I was asked to fill it in as rente viagers ,but only 50% is taxable due to entry age of annuity or transfer.If you had stared it before 50years then a larger tax allowance is made.refer to tax forms.

However ,despite paying N.I. all my working life ,I still have to pat contribution social!

[mint]

Yes, Ab.  I spoke about this in an earlier post.

Worse for my OH in some ways as he was self-employed so all of his two annuities were entirely paid for by himself without the benefit of an employer contribution.

Now, they're included in income tax AS WELL AS Contributions Sociaux.  Who wants to be self-employed or want businesses which create jobs for others?

Best to be a pen-pushing foncionnaire and then you get the whole package: early retirement, decent pension, public holidays, etc.  Only drawback is, if OH had done that, he'd be dead of boredom by now!

And yes, he did try it once, for about 6 months, in the then Property Services Agency (PSA) in Bristol.  Quite a high up position too as he was recruited as some sort of troubleshooting "outsider" but he couldn't stand the snail-like pace of the work and couldn't understand why, despite offices full of staff, projects took forever to complete. 

[parsnips]

[quote user="Ab"]When I changed jobs at 51 years, I was made to put pension into an annuity.

I arrived in France and was told they did not recognise an annuity as a pension and I was asked to fill it in as rente viagers ,but only 50% is taxable due to entry age of annuity or transfer.If you had stared it before 50years then a larger tax allowance is made.refer to tax forms.

However ,despite paying N.I. all my working life ,I still have to pat contribution social![/quote]

Hi,

    If any part of your pension which is now in an annuity was contributed to by an employer in a company scheme, then you are entitled to declare it as an occupational  pension which is free of social contributions.

[parsnips]

[quote user="Ab"]When I changed jobs at 51 years, I was made to put pension into an annuity.

I arrived in France and was told they did not recognise an annuity as a pension and I was asked to fill it in as rente viagers ,but only 50% is taxable due to entry age of annuity or transfer.If you had stared it before 50years then a larger tax allowance is made.refer to tax forms.

However ,despite paying N.I. all my working life ,I still have to pat contribution social![/quote]

Hi,

    If any part of your pension which is now in an annuity was contributed to by an employer in a company scheme, then you are entitled to declare it as an occupational  pension which is free of social contributions.  By the way the tax allowance increases the OLDER you are when you first draw the annuity.

[chirpy]

I had the annuity paid when i was 64 and get a monthly payment,which reduces by half when I pop my clogs before my wife!So poor dear ,same as others,gets only half of my pensions.

When I first arrived the tax calculation was in my favour to pay c.s. on it but the time I went to tax office with a translater seemed to indicate I had to pay the C.S.

Mind you I was dealing with an old battleaxe of a tax inspecter,and a lady aat that!