Buying with no planning permission ?

[joidevie]

Hello...

I've heard much local talk in general terms that if a property 'exchanges hands' (ie is sold) then any alterations without planning permission become 'legal' as 'it should have been up to the Mairie to intervene..'  Is there any substance to this? And how would might this get past the notaire? (ie should he be in any way be made 'aware' of the anomaly or would this 'compromise' him/her?). Would there then not be issues with a possible sale being blocked or being tied into a purchase financially which may have 'issues'? And how might you then best 'prove' that these alterations were already there if you were purchasing the property and became the new owner? And does one have access to more cadastral data (other than the often out of date town plans on the cadastres on the web/mairie) to look things up? There seem to be many many properties locally where changes seem to have slipped through the net, and a mere town plan simply does not show up certain alterations..

Many thanks for any takes on this..

[AnOther]

Others more knowledgeable will be along I'm sure but I don't think anything can be instantly legitimised simply because a property is changing hands and the notion that a Mairie should, or could, know everything is clearly preposterous.

I think the most common reason for non disclosure is that substantial improvements will usually increase the tax de habitation and I think that, as part of the sale, the seller has to complete a form (H1?) declaring if any work has been carried out which is not necessarily a check on planning permission etc. but in order to see if any taxes should have been paid but weren't.

Do you suspect something to be amiss with a property you are thinking of buying ? If so ask questions, preferably with a witness, and again if in front of a Notaire prior to signing a compromis. It would be a very brave or foolish person who lied then.

[P-D de Rouffignac]

I agree with AnOther. Work may indeed be carried out on a property without planning permission having been obtained, but generally the time this is discovered is when the property changes hands. Note that the 'expertises' may include a floor plan (obligatory in a co-pro) and any digression from a previous plan will show any anomalies.

In the 'compromis de vente' the vendor has to declare any works undertaken during the last 15 years, another clear signal to the buyer and the Notaire.

Planning rules also change. In a recent case, my local Notaire advised against a purchase where the property did not comply with recent norms for dwellings in a flood risk area, where the ground floor must be at least 50cms above street level. This does not apply to commercial premises and the vendor had converted them into an apartment without planning permission. Any new owner would have been obliged to obtain planning permission and carry out any necessary alterations - in this case raising the floor levels! Faced with this impossibility, the premises were converted back to commercial use and then sold to a plumber to create his showroom.

You must check, check and check again before entering into any commitment to buy.

P-D de R.

[AnOther]

I think this is where many DIY restorers will have come unstuck and a great many more are oblivious to the fact that their turn will come.

They buy a property then launch into massive renovations, extensions, loft conversions, WHY, without so much as a passing thought for the legalities and the potential problems down the line if and when they come to sell.

I don't know what it is that overcomes people like this when back in UK they would probably not have dreamed of lifting a hammer without applying for all the proper permissions and permits etc. Must be the sun !

As it happens a friend of mine is in this situation, a 5 year long restoration from a shell for which he has recently found a buyer, so it will be very interesting to observe developments as the process proceeds.

[joidevie]

Many thanks..  I myself am one of those DIYers and was meticulous about getting all the permissions - and was amply rewarded when I recently sold with gleaming bits of paperwork, all stamped. The process however, was a long one..

I'm actually looking at another house which has a roof terrace (in the roof, above the first floor of an outbuilding, so there is no sign of it on the cadastre) and it is being sold with an agent and privately as 'with roof terrace'.. Does the agent have any obligations? These sorts of terraces seem to have many loopholes when it comes to planning (I knew of one where the Mairie simply said it doesn't need it as it's within a certain sq m relative the the entire roof) so it can be hard to pin down. Others are simply turned down as a matter of course.. How to check?

Thanks..

[P-D de Rouffignac]

With regard to checking concerning previous alterations, you can visit the planning department of the Mairie and also the DDE, who generally have a specialist in their local office for each village or commune. They will not only guide you as to what is allowable, before it's too late, and should have records of previous planning applications (or lack of, as was the case in the example I quoted above, which killed off the sale on the advice of the Notaire).  Also related to the case above, the builder admitted his mistake - he thought the work did not require planning pemission - faced with the impossibility of raising floor levels in an existing building (already fitted out), on the advice of the Mairie it was sold as a commercial premise, where the rules regarding flood levels did not apply. They did their best to be helpful.

Hope this helps - P-D de R.

[joidevie]

Many thanks.. This has pretty much confirmed what I thought... The DDE could be the right place to start..