Double taxation treaty and HMRC who want their heads feeling

[JohnRoss]

After a long and frustrating telephone call to HMRC I feel like having a

rant but I thought I would pass on this information as I know others have been

or will be in a similar situation. For some reason HMRC started charging me

income tax on my teachers pension which is less than the personal allowance.

The implication in the letter from them was that they were docking my teachers pension because of one of my other pensions despite the fact that they were only taxable in France. They had changed my tax code from NT to a number slightly less than my actual

pension. I filled in their on-line form stating my query and giving all the

appropriate information and got an email saying they would respond within 10

days. After 12 days I resent the information and more than another 10 days later

still no response.

 

I telephoned them today on the number given here for calling

from abroad. http://search2.hmrc.gov.uk/kb5/hmrc/contactus/view.page?record=h40mW9YbrhU&titleindex=1

They promised to sort the problem but strangely they said that there was no

email facility to them and the form I filled in, twice, on-line went to the

centre of non-residents who only answered general queries and not ones dealing

with the sort of issue that I had with them. Being somewhat confused I asked

where the person was working that I was talking to and they replied that they

were the self assessment section. Now either I am getting old and silly or they

don't know their own system. I asked why I would be talking to the self

assessment as I was retired and not self employed and got an incomprehensible

answer.

 

My message is from my experience sending the on-line form seems often

not to obtain any result, I had problems with this last time they wrongly

fiddled with my tax code. Telephoning them does sometimes work but not always

and again from past experience can result in them sending you incorrect forms

and duff information. I know others have a low opinion of HMRC and it would

appear that their internal communication between various offices is a bit

naff! The person I spoke to seemed unaware of the facility available for non

residents on their own web site and could not give any clue as to why I had been

ignored. So the message is telephone them and have a rant it might just work but

not always!...............JR

[parsnips]

Hi,

     According to this month's "Connexion" (usually, it must be said, to be taken with a pinch of salt) the HMRC have recently" disbanded their non-residents' section and reorganised their computer and admin systems"--so if true, we all know that we are in for years of chaos.

[JohnRoss]

Ok now it is beginning to make sense as if be true one imagines if the section for non-residents has been folded they might well route phone calls to some other section. Maybe they will get around to updating their web site one day soon or not. Years of chaos indeed so nothing new there then!.....................JR

[idun]

http://goo.gl/TVLMp

 

Is what has happened to you along these lines..........?

 

 

People will be screaming blue murder, won't they? I suppose that the first year would be the killer, then the following years it'd sort itself out. But still, there are many that could not afford the first year. 

[Benjamin]

Interesting, JohnRoss.

Now being UK resident but not having yet made a tax return, I was issued with a Coding Notification which did not reflect my entitlement to the age related higher personal allowance.

On telephoning HMRC I was given a load of waffle about I may be receiving unexpected further income this year (oh yea?) so to save me being in arrears with my tax and then having to pay a lump sum HMRC had decided to keep me on the standard tax code.

I pressed the point and, very relucantly, HMRC issued a new code reflecting the age related allowance.

I think they are under so much pressure to increase the take that they see pensioners as an easy target.

If they think they may have lost a few votes with the "Granny Tax" just imagine what would happen if Idun's link came into force. Has no one told George that there are 11 plus million of us?

[NormanH]

They already adjust the tax code on Local Government pensions to allow for the fact that the OAP is received tax-free. Obviously those of us who live in France then have to complete the France Individual form to get that code adjusted for the fact that the OAP is taxable in France not the UK

 What effect  the measure proposed in the DM article would have on that I am not sure. Will HMG try to make the OAP taxable in the UK as with the Local Government pensions?.

[JohnRoss]

France Individual form. Is this the one I had to fill in 3 years ago when I turned 65 and had to send via the French tax office to HMRC? They fiddled with my tax code then and I queried it and they sent that form. If so I think I did one when I first moved to France in 2001. How many times are we going to have to jump through these hoops? Don't they keep any records? Going outside to have a scream now or have a good swear. Might kick something! Maybe they are trying to kill us off by bursting our blood vessles with pressure!.........JR 

[NormanH]

Yes that sounds like the one

www.hmrc.gov.uk/cnr/france-individual.pdf

[JohnRoss]

Yes that is the one Norman. I remember it well. If they send yet another I may explode!...........JR

[cooperlola]

As Mr C is due to get his OAP in 2014 I am given to wonder whether I should be getting another FI form ready in advance!  Presumably it will come to us net in the first instance? 

[NormanH]

I wanted to have it ready in advance, but my French tax office refuses to process it until I have declared the first year's income, saying that they can't sign the form they see that it is being declared here.

Yes at the moment the OAP is paid net and in Euros.

The UK tax code on other income is adjusted to tax the OAP, and that is why that form is needed to tell them change the code back.

[idun]

It is a little unfair of les impots really as they don't even want french pensions that are not liable for french tax declared in France at all!

 

AND HMRC also know that these have to be declared in France, so it is bloody minded of them and in my opinion disgraceful!!!!!

[JohnRoss]

Just try typing "I hate HMRC" into your search engine and you find lots of sites like this one!  http://amplicate.com/hate/hmrc  ......JR

[Gardian]

[quote user="NormanH"]I wanted to have it ready in advance, but my French tax office refuses to process it until I have declared the first year's income, saying that they can't sign the form they see that it is being declared here.
Yes at the moment the OAP is paid net and in Euros.
The UK tax code on other income is adjusted to tax the OAP, and that is why that form is needed to tell them change the code back.
[/quote]

Norman ................

Your Beziers Impots are really bad guys.

Our local bloke just said "I can see that you're imposable here", signed it and said that he'd send it off. (He said that he'd never seen a form like that in his life, but "Heh......".)

Six or so weeks later, (thanks to your original thread) HMRC had credited past tax in to our bank a/c.[:)]

It's all much more civilised over here in the Gard.[6]

[NormanH]

I agree, especially since the form is really only saying that the income is imposable, not asking how much tax has been taken.

It just means I will have to pay excess tax in the UK until sometime after September then try to get it back.  And I can't even vote!

Yet again different offices different interpretations.

[cooperlola]

We had the same response as Norman when we first came over and paid tax in both countries for a while before getting the UK refund - a big "non" to signing the form until we'd actually paid our first tax bill in France.  In this case we'd hope that as we're already paying here it won't be such a bore but you just never know with officialdom.

[Judith]

I'm still going round this particular circle - but slowly we are getting there - over the last two years -  to the extent that we are now awaiting letters from them,  etc etc which should put it all right.

BUT - and the purpose of this post is three fold:

(1) last year HMRC reorganised their helplines (it happened whilst I was still getting the first stage sorted, so I phoned them quite a bit.  During this time they centralised all the call lines, and then you are sent off to whoever is best to help you (supposedly) so you no longer phone your main tax office.  It is the self-assessment line you have to phone.  Because of the living abroad and DDT stuff, you nearly always have to be referred up the line to a technical bod - so if you get nowhere, ask to speak to someone technical ...

(2) We have both had NT codes, which have reverted, but telephoning the above centre does eventually get it sorted. 

(3)  The number I have been phoning is 00 44 (1) 161 931 9070 which is I believe the self-assessment help line.  You do have to persevere sometimes to get to speak to someone who knows what they are talking about.

[JohnRoss]

The number given on the Non-Residents page given in the link in my original post is:

 

If you're calling from abroad please telephone +44 135 535 9022 Which was someone in Self-assessment. When they answered Judith on the 00 44 (1) 161 931 9070  number did they confirm they were in Self-assessment? If so then it does look as if something has happened to the Non-Residents section and calls are being redirected......................JR

 

[Judith]

JohnRoss

To reply - from memory - when I started this lark about 2010 - one of my "better" communicators said that next time I needed to phone (when I got around to filling in the self assessment form which I needed to do to get the re-claim started), I should phone the number I gave you - this because everything was being re-organised as from (whatever the date was - now past) .... and since then I have phoned that number and eventually got where I needed to be .... I never had much success with CNR - first they said I wasn't their concern (funny I thought, I am non-resident) but this was before I'd done the rigmarole of the France Individual form) so since then I have not contacted CNR but the self assessment line ... and that seems to work ok.

Hope that helps.

[JohnRoss]

Thanks Judith. From my own and the experience of others it looks very much like they are

targeting those OAPs who have a suspiciously small income like my Teachers

pension which is less than the over 65s allowance and noting other incomes in

the UK like my State pension or previous employment pension and imposing tax on the teachers

pension to allow for these others without checking that the poor victim is not

resident in the UK. I don't think this is exclusive to those on Govt

pensions but indicates they are looking at all OAPs

for this grannie tax business. So any of us could suddenly find that HMRC are

taxing us when they shouldn't. Seems that is what happened to the bloke in the

Connexion article and several others I have read about on other ex-pat forums. No

doubt they will expect me to do yet another France individual form and return

via the French tax man which I have done at least twice before.

 

Last year they did the same to the missus and started taxing something they

should not tax! So it could happen to you too! They told

her that as their computer system had been replaced they were

starting again and assuming that everyone lived in the UK and therefore were

subject to income tax in the UK until we kicked up about it and proved

otherwise.That says to me that they were too lazy to transfer records

from the old system or, and more likely, they didn't want the cost of doing this and hoping to save money by closing the Non-Resident section.

 

Sorry rant over...........JR

[Judith]

I haven't read the connexion article (I read the paper once or twice, but found it unreliable) and I have better things to do ....but it would seem to me that you do have to check your tax code each year .... as I said, each time something changed from right to wrong ...I phoned the same number, and it has eventually been sorted out - even hubby's - which turned out to need a referral to his own tax office, as his file is "locked" because he once worked for the MOD (In an admin post!!) .... but even then they phoned back within the stated time - and all should now be straight.

As with all things, something goes wrong - so though I do hope it doesn't take you too long to get it sorted - I can only repeat what I said - using that phone number and speaking to someone on the technical side (as they describe it) usually works - certainly for me, they had a record of all the different telephone conversations we'd had, could see letters written etc, so maybe it depends just when you started all this as that might be why the records are lost.

Good luck.

[JohnRoss]

"As with all things, something goes wrong - so though I do hope it doesn't take you too long to get it sorted"  Well indeed and in fairness to HMRC they have now sorted it in that I got a letter the other day giving me a new tax code above the value of my small teacher's pension and an email to that effect two days ago. It has therefore taken them about a month or so to sort things out and for that I am grateful. I agree that the telephone call I made would have seemed to have had more effect than my email via their website. I guess they are doing their best with, I suspect, short staffages and too much work on for those that they have!...............................JR

PS à la prochaine and watch this space.